Atlanta @ Portland

[cucad8]

Stats are more of a measure of how bad the player is than how good he is.

I hope there's some sarcasm here.

[d-train]

I hope there's some sarcasm here.

No sarcasm, the point is the stats by themselves without considering the context are meaningless. If you don't get that than you are one of many people that doesn't understand how deceptive stats are in basketball.

[Mr Odd]

I dont want to hear anyone say that Roy does
not get any calls no more. That call at the very
end was not a big enough foul to be called at that
point of the game. Refs rarely make a call that late
in a game that will most likely decide the game, but
when they do its usually for "superstar" type players.

[Yadadimean]

I dont want to hear anyone say that Roy does
not get any calls no more. That call at the very
end was not a big enough foul to be called at that
point of the game. Refs rarely make a call that late
in a game that will most likely decide the game, but
when they do its usually for "superstar" type players.

It was definitely a foul, and I've seen refs give lesser players the continuation even though it was way after the fact. This is a call that would usually go against the Blazers so I'm not complaining, but I also see Roy not get the call a lot of the time too.

[cucad8]

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No sarcasm, the point is the stats by themselves without considering the context are meaningless. If you don't get that than you are one of many people that doesn't understand how deceptive stats are in basketball.

Now, I completely understand that stats without context are meaningless, and can agree to an extent on that. What i don't agree with is what you previously stated, that stats are more of a measure of how bad a player is. That's kind of ridiculous.

[d-train]

Now, I completely understand that stats without context are meaningless, and can agree to an extent on that. What i don't agree with is what you previously stated, that stats are more of a measure of how bad a player is. That's kind of ridiculous.

Then you didn't read what I said. I gave an example of a scenario where a poor offensive player can get stats measuring positive production because he is a terrible offensive player. The terrible offensive player would compile stats that are misleading because he got them because the opponent was ignoring him and helping his teammates guard other players.

[Charlie78]

Sorry to keep going off track here but it was my understanding that you are not allowed to smoke in any public place in california outside of designated smoking areas. I always found it funny because it included the beach, which I can understand because of the litter. I used to smoke and truthfully I wish i still did, because that nicotine is oh so hard to forget. But my better half wouldnt marry me if I kept it up so thankfully i quit.

As for the game I really hope this sparks the team on to another winning streak. I fully expect the team to come back down to earth for the remainder of the season. But extended losing streaks will give people a reason to marginalize what this team has acomplished. Despite the fact that I shouldnt care what the forum trolls around here think I desperatley want the blazers to win the division so i can shove it down their internet connection so to speak.

[swede]

IMO that last foul that put Roy on the charity stripe was total B.S. and we would all be flipping out about it if it went the other way

[mojomarc]

So I did two things--on, I went back and looked at the play-by-play, and the -9 is correct. I read the original starting score backwards. My bad.

The other things I did, though, was go back and re-watch Sergio's play in the Houston game. Things that he did that didn't show up in the stats on the plus side just from his first half play:

1) fed Outlaw for a drive that Outlaw fell on/was undercut. Outlaw turnover, no assist for Sergio that could have been had Outlaw simply pulled up.

2) Hit outlaw wide open a second time, Outlaw was long on the shot.

3) Got right in front of Alston after McGrady tried to feed him, forcing McGrady to take a shot with Travis in his face, which he missed.

4) Forced Alston to give up the dribble on a partial break by playing him tightly.

5) Fed Outlaw for a wide open lane to drive which Outlaw missed due to a foul.

6) Fed Outlaw for yet another wide open shot that was bricked by Travis.

7) Fed Jack for an open lane to the hoop, only to have Jack miss the layup under late pressure.

All of those were plays that I thought were well done, and should be credited to Sergio. If Travis plays the normal Travis game, Sergio has 3-4 more assists then he ended up with. He also had a great steal in there, but that showed up. Plus, he certainly wasn't responsible for the other open and contested hots that Portland missed during that stretch, nor the lame defense played by other teammates that led to him being a minus. In fact, his defense off the ball a couple of times led to Houston taking some shots late in the shot clock that they probably didn't want to take, so you could say that if Sergio had played the old style Sergio defense the minus would be worse quite likely than -9.

On the minus side, Brooks did lose him once, but other than that he was generally in good defensive position and was playing quite tight compared to what Sergio used to do.

So I stand by my statements about Sergio's game--he can't be held responsible for Jack missing a layup or Travis bricking so many shots. His defense was also pretty darned good, even though it wasn't Gary Payton reincarnate, and he was harrassing for much of it.

As far as the stats debate, I think this does illustrate d-train's point: stats without context never really tell the story.

[SinceClyde]

I dont want to hear anyone say that Roy does
not get any calls no more. That call at the very
end was not a big enough foul to be called at that
point of the game. Refs rarely make a call that late
in a game that will most likely decide the game, but
when they do its usually for "superstar" type players.

It's about time. Not that it took a while, but if Roy had to wait until his 3rd season to start getting calls, then I'd be worried. I was worried that he'd never get them with the positive attitude he has (or at least he isn't a complainer).

More than anything, the NBA really needed a new star like Brandon Roy. A good kid who knows the fundamentals of the game.

[borgradr]

I'm really glad to see Coach gaining faith in Sergio. I think the kid needs a little more time to get into the flow of any given game. When he gets more than 15 minutes, he seems to do much better. This last game he got 4 points and 6 assists with no turnovers in 16 minutes, in the previous Atlanta game he got 16 points and 4 assists in 16 minutes and in the Utah game on the 5th he hit 12 points and got 4 assists in 21 minutes.

As inconsistent as Blake has been so far this year, I see no reason Rodriguez shouldn't be splitting minutes with him. Rather than giving Blake 27 minutes a game, give him and Sergio 20 each and let's see what we really have in this kid. At the very least he could be an excellent change of pace guard for the second unit, something he clearly has excelled at this year when given the chance.

Also, Rodriguez's D is highly underrated on this board. It may not be great all the time, but he has shown flashes of actually being a decent perimeter defender when he puts his mind to it. He's certainly as good or better than Jack (who I must admit has been pretty disappointing as a defender).

[R11]

I'm really glad to see Coach gaining faith in Sergio. I think the kid needs a little more time to get into the flow of any given game. When he gets more than 15 minutes, he seems to do much better. This last game he got 4 points and 6 assists with no turnovers in 16 minutes, in the previous Atlanta game he got 16 points and 4 assists in 16 minutes and in the Utah game on the 5th he hit 12 points and got 4 assists in 21 minutes.

Chicken or the egg? I think Sergio has gotten the minutes when he has shown he's got something going. Not the other way around. In fact, in many of the games he's started out well, he ends up tailing off the longer he goes. It has been good to see Sergio make a few contributions of late, and Nate has given him some run when he has. Hopefully he (Sergio), can keep it up.


ron

[mojomarc]

I tend to agree with Ron--I think Sergio has generally gotten minutes when he should (I think Jack has been the major beneficiary over Blake more than Sergio when it comes to minutes). Still over the last small handful of games it seems like Sergio has slowed down a little bit and it has made him much more effective. If he can keep it up he could be hugely valuable to us. If he can learn to shoot consistently, and he's still young enough that he's hardly hopeless that way, he can be a very, very good PG in this league.

[Charlie78]

First off that foul was legit. Joe Johnson intentionally fouled roy. Roy was just smart enough to throw it up to the rim. Youll notice not one mention of it by atlanta players or coaches. Which there would have been had it been bogus.

Second I for one have always been a big doubter of sergio, however I have always liked him as a person and teammate. This is the same feeling I have had about Travis. That seems to be paying off so I am willing to give him some serious latitude. I am not sure he is ever a starter. But he has the skills to be a good pg in the NBA. As long as his attitude doesnt sour I am all for keeping him in his current role.-+

[borgradr]

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Chicken or the egg? I think Sergio has gotten the minutes when he has shown he's got something going. Not the other way around. In fact, in many of the games he's started out well, he ends up tailing off the longer he goes. It has been good to see Sergio make a few contributions of late, and Nate has given him some run when he has. Hopefully he (Sergio), can keep it up.


ron

Problem is, Sergio has averaged less than 10 minutes a game this year. Thats no where near enough time to evaluate him accurately. He's simply not been allowed to make mistakes the way the other 2 point guards have. Jack has been crappy this year at everything other than making shots for himself (a skill I've been grateful for at times, but that doesn't really make the team better). Blake has been mediocre at most everything, and his one positive asset - fg percentage - is less important because he really doesn't get very involved in the offense.

I'm not saying that Sergio has played flawlessly, far from it. I just think he has far and away the most promise of any of our three point guards, yet our nervous-nelly coach won't let him make the mistakes he needs to figure the NBA game out.

[Tim Lehrbach]

As far as the stats debate, I think this does illustrate d-train's point: stats without context never really tell the story.

Sure, except that d-train is [ahem] 'railing' against precisely the sort of stats that do contextualize a player's contributions to his team.

[kinch]

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It's about time. Not that it took a while, but if Roy had to wait until his 3rd season to start getting calls, then I'd be worried. I was worried that he'd never get them with the positive attitude he has (or at least he isn't a complainer).

More than anything, the NBA really needed a new star like Brandon Roy. A good kid who knows the fundamentals of the game.

All superstar calls suck.

[J~Rush]

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All superstar calls suck.

[Charlie78]

That was not a superstar call.

[mojomarc]

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Sure, except that d-train is [ahem] 'railing' against precisely the sort of stats that do contextualize a player's contributions to his team.

I tend to agree. He's right that they don't tell the whole story, but the right stats sure can flesh out a few chapters.