Facilitating Sam Cassell's Buyout

[Jammer]

Without re-reading all the Lengthy Analysis in my post of 1/23/2008

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic. ... highlight=

I'll cut to the short and sweet executive summary.

I would think that it's legal for Danny Ainge to call Elgin Baylor, Clippers, GM, and suggest that the Clippers buyout Sam Cassell by the trade deadline (costing the Clips roughly $3 million out of $3.5 million owed),

and Sam Cassell has already agreed to sign with the Celts for the vet minimum (open negotiations between all parties),

then the Celts will repay the Clips in a separate trade at the end of June, early July.

At that point, if the Clippers renounce their expired contracts, and Shaun Livingston (qualifying offer would be $5.8 million, can't see it by June 25);

then the Clips are under the cap.

The Celts could do any of the following to send $3 million back to the Clips in trade.

1. Send $3 million + Brian Scalabrine + 2008 2nd Round Pick for
rights to player the Clips don't plan to re-sign, who the Celtics waive.

2. Send $3 million + Brian Scalabrine + Gabe Pruitt for
Clips 2008 2nd Round Pick (probably like # 35-36).

I don't think that this is illegal.

The Big Problem is that everyone, like the Carlos Boozer situation with Cleveland a few years back, would be depending on Sam Cassell signing with the Celtics. But in this case, you could have Ray Allen (played 4 1/2 seasons with Sam) and KG (played 2 seasons) hear it from Sam himself before the deal goes down.

The Celts and Sam get a buyout for $3 million out of $3.5 million owed.

The Clips know that USC alum Pruitt will be coming their way in June, plus they'll be getting Scal for two seasons. A good guy to execute plays with.

Without Scal + Pruitt, the Celts will have 11 players if they re-sign Tony Allen, Eddie House, Scot Pollard and Posey opts in. I think that Posey will probably opt in if he can get an assurance from Danny Ainge that when his $3,462,480 2009 salary is up; he gets a multi-year extension with 8% raises (figure 3-4 year extension, which would take him out thru age 35 or 36).

Even if the Celts don't re-sign soon to be 39 year old Sam Cassell (Oct.), they will have 11 players + probably 2 free agents + 2 draft picks to work with, without any further trades.

[Spin Move]

That would not be legal under the CBA, you arent allowed to do something and have a wink wink agreement that your going to in the future make things worthwhile for the other party, thats what the joe smith thing was about, They could trade us sam cassell but we cant pay them to buy him out legally. Also there could be no gaurntee that cassel would come play for us before he is realased. Once someone is bought out they are a free agent before that point negotions are not allowed.

[sully00]

Scal is going to be making 7 mil over the next two years, if this is financially motivated why not just buyout Cassell?

Scal/Pruitt is 2/3rds of just trading for him add House or Tony Allen and be on your way.

[Jammer]

That would not be legal under the CBA, you arent allowed to do something and have a wink wink agreement that your going to in the future make things worthwhile for the other party, thats what the joe smith thing was about, They could trade us sam cassell but we cant pay them to buy him out legally. Also there could be no gaurntee that cassel would come play for us before he is realased. Once someone is bought out they are a free agent before that point negotions are not allowed.

Geez, thought the CBA might have a clause about wink-wink deals.

Thanks for the update, Spin.

[celticfan42487]

Oh they do, and it's that they hate them. Another thing that Red can claim some stake in making. Really is there a rule created that Red didn't break for a decade plus in the NBA???

If you remeber back to the ATL trade with Gary Payton beign released and returning to us... The NBA was VERY intrested in seeing if that was legit and if they could find anything they were going to punish the Celtic franchise.

[Spin Move]

From the coon faq, its not exactly team to team per se but the logic applies, the CBA has a clasue saying your not allowed to try and circumvent the cba

From the Coon Faq
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap99.htm#20

"20. Can a team circumvent the salary cap by paying a player less but arranging for an affiliated company to also pay him, perhaps by way of an endorsement contract?

I suppose it could happen, but the NBA will investigate if it suspects that an outside person or organization is paying a player on behalf or at the request of a team. If they find out that such an event has occurred, they will penalize the team. For the first offense by a team, the fine can be up to $2,500,000, forfeiture of a first round draft pick, and/or voiding the player's contract. The penalties increase for subsequent violations.

Incidentally, with the new CBA they did away with the ability for players to become player-coaches. This is because it would be possible to circumvent the cap by signing a player as a player-coach, and paying him less as a player but overpaying him as a coach.

21. Do players and teams ever have under-the-table agreements? What happens when the league finds out about them? Is this what happened with the Timberwolves and Joe Smith?

If a team makes a direct agreement with a player that is not reported to the league, the penalties can be even harsher than those described in question number 20 . Such a violation is considered by the league to be among the most serious a team can commit. Again, the league will investigate any allegations of wrongdoing. A violation can result in a fine up to $3,500,000, forfeiture of draft picks, voiding the player's contract(s), and/or the suspension for up to one year of any team personnel who were involved.

This is exactly what happened in 2000 with Joe Smith and the Minnesota Timberwolves. Smith left the Philadelphia 76ers in 1999 (following the lockout) to sign with the Minnesota Timberwolves for their $1.75 million mid-level exception. They made an under-the-table agreement that Smith would play under three consecutive one-year contracts at below market value, and the Timberwolves would reward him by using their Bird rights to sign him to a huge contract beginning with the 2001-02 season. Unfortunately, they reduced this agreement to writing, and the written agreement eventally found its way into the league's hands.

It had long been rumored that such under-the-table agreements existed, but this was the first time the league had hard evidence in the form of a signed contract. The league responded by fining the team the maximum $3.5 million, taking away their next five draft picks (two were later returned), and voiding Smith's current contract. Owner Glen Taylor and GM Kevin McHale also agreed to leaves of absence (in lieu of suspensions, at which time the fifth draft pick was returned). Most interestingly, the league also voided Smith's two previous, already-completed contracts. This essentially stripped the Timberwolves of any Bird rights to Smith, preventing them from re-signing Smith for any salary above the minimum (they had already used their other exceptions). Smith then left Minnesota and signed with the Detroit Pistons, but returned to Minnesota in 2001. "

[crm0922]

Man, they paid a huge penalty. All over Joe freakin Smith.

C

[Jammer]

Scal is going to be making 7 mil over the next two years, if this is financially motivated why not just buyout Cassell?

Scal/Pruitt is 2/3rds of just trading for him add House or Tony Allen and be on your way.

Sully:

I don't see the Celtics trading, or sign and trading this summer, Tony Allen unless a regulation size shooting guard comes back.

I also don't see the Celtics trading Scot Pollard unless a regulation size center comes back.

-- Jammer

[Jammer]

Spin:

But let's say it happened like this.

Danny Ainge and Elgin Baylor, meaning Wyc Grousbeck and Donald Sterling, agree that come last week of June or early July, when the Clippers can renounce their expired contracts (and probably won't extend a $5.8 million qualifying offer to Shaun Livingston by June 25), then the Clips will have 8 players under contract plus Maggette (assuming he opts out).

Now, the Clips are now under the cap, and can accept USC alum Brian Scalabrine without having to send a player back.

So, they agree now, that come last week of June or first week of July,

the Celts will send the Clips either:

$3 million + Brian Scalabrine + Celts 2008 2nd Round Pick for
rights to player Clips don't plan to re-sign, who the Celtics will waive

or

$3 million + Scalabrine + USC's Gabe Pruitt for
Clippers 2008 2nd Round Pick (probably #35 or 36 pick).

Now, one of the above two deals is agreed to, waiting till summer when the Clips will have the roster space to just accept Scal (since they will technically be under the cap), and not have to send someone back to balance the salaries.

Simultaneously, Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett chat up with buddy Sammy Cassell, and obtain assurances that if Sammy's cut loose, he's heading to Boston.

Nothing illegal there.

Lastly, the Clips buyout Cassell, for say $3 million out of $3.5 million owed.

Cassell has to clear waivers (yikes), and then the Celts sign him.

Looks legal, to me.

Except for the part where no one grabs him off of waivers, to just stash him.

Ethically that's not cool. But, you'd have to pay him.

-- Jammer

[Spin Move]

Still not kosher the contact by Garnet and allen could be considered tampering by the league, i mean if the league suspects something is up the costs way outwiegh the benefit, if we send them a 1st rounder they might take scal, but is Cassel at this age worht this?

[cisco]

Still not kosher the contact by Garnet and allen could be considered tampering by the league, i mean if the league suspects something is up the costs way outwiegh the benefit, if we send them a 1st rounder they might take scal, but is Cassel at this age worht this?

The cost will be worth it if they win a championship.

[Collinto]

Still not kosher the contact by Garnet and allen could be considered tampering by the league, i mean if the league suspects something is up the costs way outwiegh the benefit,

Although to some degree, I am sure this happens. You can't tell me that Stoudemire's agent didn't guage the interest in his client prior to negotiating the buyout. He knows that his client will end up with a vet minimum contract this year, but in giving up 80% of earning next season, the agent had hypothetical conversations about possibile contract numbers/interest for the next contract he will sign over the summer.

So the same can be said for Cassell. His agent reaches out (or a GM to him)) and expresses interest. For example, a call to his agent to find out if he knows about any veteran point guards who might become available after the trade deadline via buyout. Guarantee that happes all the time.

[sully00]

Beyond the concept of the Clippers still paying a large some of cash in the sum of Scal's contract for a essentially the last pick in the draft what exactly are the Clippers getting out of this senario?

The Clippers cannot trade the rights to a FA.

Nobody is going to claim a player coming off a buyout off of waivers. It is actually pointless, I wasn't aware of this until Damon was waived but he essentially has no contract, there is nothing to claim he is a FA.

If what you wanted to do was have the C's send a boatload of cash to the Clippers to get them to let Sam go there are plenty of easier options. The league just may not go for it. Instead of dealing players why not just have the C's make a deal with the Clippers that gives Boston some sort of advantage a swap of 2nd rounders and then send the cash. A more legit option may be to send Boston's first for LAC 2nd and a future 1st that can be protected to the point it is never sent and the cash to cover the salary of the !st rounder over the life of the contract.

[sully00]

-= original quote snipped =-



Although to some degree, I am sure this happens. You can't tell me that Stoudemire's agent didn't guage the interest in his client prior to negotiating the buyout. He knows that his client will end up with a vet minimum contract this year, but in giving up 80% of earning next season, the agent had hypothetical conversations about possibile contract numbers/interest for the next contract he will sign over the summer.

So the same can be said for Cassell. His agent reaches out (or a GM to him)) and expresses interest. For example, a call to his agent to find out if he knows about any veteran point guards who might become available after the trade deadline via buyout. Guarantee that happes all the time.

That isn't really necessary it is like realstate. The market for the kind of contract that Damon will get is out there. The reality is Damon gave up very little to get out of a bad situation. Memphis was going to limit his playing time so that he would have his salary cut in half in 08-09 per his contract. They paid him that and what he has earned to this point this year. Figure he was owed 2.2 for the remainder of this year that is what he gave up. That is why he wants to quickly sign as he will get $500,000 for the rest of this season. So if he gets Eddie House money next year 1.5 mil he basically gave up $200,000 in the buyout. At the same time Memphis saves 4 mil bucks in salary. That is why it is better than any trade Memphis could have gotten for him.

Sam is not owed any money beyond this season. So reaching a buyout in this senario is very difficult. Figure Sam will ask for his remaining salary minus what he can make on vet minimum. A little over 3 mil minus $500,000, the Clippers are not going to let their starting pg walk for nothing and pay him over 2.5 mil to help the C's win a title. As we near 3/1, which I believe is the drop dead for rosters to be set for the post season, I will call it 20 games for easy figuring the two sides are negotiating over 1.25 mil and that is a little easier to find common ground on.

[Bamboozled]

With Sterling being such a horrible owner (I can't remember a single trade hes' even agreed to, outside of acquiring Cassell), why not bank on KG and Ray Allen's friendship with Sam I Am? If the Clippers are in buyout mode with Cassell, it's unlikely he's going anywhere but to Boston (or possibly Dallas). The Celtics definitely have a monopoly on the aging but crafty PG market

[sully00]

With Sterling being such a horrible owner (I can't remember a single trade hes' even agreed to, outside of acquiring Cassell), why not bank on KG and Ray Allen's friendship with Sam I Am? If the Clippers are in buyout mode with Cassell, it's unlikely he's going anywhere but to Boston (or possibly Dallas). The Celtics definitely have a monopoly on the aging but crafty PG market

Because he has already laid the groundwork to go to DEN and play with Karl. While not exactly a favorite to win a title Anthony Carter is avg 8/3/6 getting 7 shots a game and getting more mins than Sam is in LAC. Slide Sam in that role with all of those open looks and with Carter backing him up then DEN starts to look a little bit more dangerous. Instead of tagging along for a title run in Boston with a maybe for next year, he can be the missing piece in DEN with solid for next season. Sam has rings, and as friends go my guess is that AI and Camby are more his speed than Ray and KG.

[Bamboozled]

That's an interesting idea to go to Denver, but could you really see Cassell saying "no" to KG? I wouldn't even feel comfortable being in a room with him, let alone saying "sorry KG, but I just don't think you've got what it takes to win a championship".

[EdSkae]

[quote="Spin Move"]From the coon faq, its not exactly team to team per se but the logic applies, the CBA has a clasue saying your not allowed to try and circumvent the cba

From the Coon Faq
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap99.htm#20

"20. Can a team circumvent the salary cap by paying a player less but arranging for an affiliated company to also pay him, perhaps by way of an endorsement contract?

I suppose it could happen, but the NBA will investigate if it suspects that an outside person or organization is paying a player on behalf or at the request of a team. If they find out that such an event has occurred, they will penalize the team. For the first offense by a team, the fine can be up to $2,500,000, forfeiture of a first round draft pick, and/or voiding the player's contract. The penalties increase for subsequent violations.

If this is true. Then how can the NBA allow Lebron to have a Nike endorsement deal that pays him more if he plays in certain cities (NY,LA, Chi, Bos)?

[Spin Move]

[quote="EdSkae"][/quote]

That deal wasnt negotiated by the team or influanced by the team, that deal is based on Nike's marketing research, the tampering comes in when a team convinces a company to do it.

[Jammer]

sully:

You're right, teams can't trade the rights to unsigned free agents.

But my other scenario, of a second round pick in return, is logical, and justified by the salary dump, as exemplified by the Kurt Thomas trade.

So,

$3 million + Scalabrine + Pruitt for Clippers 2008 2nd Round Pick or

$3 million + Scalabrine + 2008 2nd Round Pick for Clippers 2008 2nd Round Pick

both are viable.

Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett chat up old times with their buddy Sammy, posing the hypothetical "Imagine if we were all on the same team." What if you were a free man, Sammy. Where would you go?"

And then the Clips give Sam his walking papers, and hopefully Sam clears waivers.

Just a hypothetical, man. Just a hypothetical.