Jason Kidd wants out (Merged Threads)

Post #101 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:05 am

NetsForce wrote:Kidd's relationship with the Nets isn't exactly bad... It's not like he's had any serious blowups with Nets management...

It's also important to note that Scott had problems with Kidd, Martin, and Jefferson.

Who should the Nets have gotten rid of, their three best players, or Scott? The answer should be self-evident...

Scott has even acknowledged that he has had to change his ways since being fired by the Nets and that if he could go back he would do things differently...

Yeah I might have been overly harsh. I have to ask though: Is there ever a situation where management is happy when a player goes public with a trade request?

The Nets should have gotten rid of Scott instead of Kidd. Kidd was more valuable. The question is whether Kidd really knew what he was doing when he demanded Scott go. I honestly don't have a problem with star players getting coaches fired if they're right, but I'd see proof of being right *always* comes with improved success. That success obviously didn't come, so Kidd deserves criticism particularly when the issues he's had elsewhere. You can rope Martin and Jefferson into that too but we all know that if the two of them had had the problem and Kidd said he wanted Scott to stay, Scott would have stayed.

Ballings7 · Post #102 » by **Ballings7** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:17 am

I'd lean to Kidd not going anywhere.

Denver doesn't have the pieces to get Kidd. A three-way deal must be done in that case. Even if Nene wasn't side-lined with the cancer recovery/treatment, I don't know if he'd get it done, just because of his contract and significant injury issues.

Post #103 » by **tkb** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:17 am

Doctor MJ wrote:First thought? This will be the 3rd team Kidd's ended his relationship badly with. An ideal team leader? I don't think so.

I guess we see things differently. I tend to look at leadership shown on court first and foremost. Jason Kidd does have excellent leadership qualities as far as basketball goes. He does have his off court problems for sure, but downplaying his basketball leadership is a bit silly IMO. On a basketball court, he's every bit the leader a Steve Nash or a Tim Duncan is for instance.

Who could have led team USA better than Kidd did this summer? No one could IMO, and that (to me) is a sign that Kidd is an ideal leader when put in the right situation. That he is sick of losing is if anything a good sign as far as competitiveness goes, and I've yet to see the Nets stating anything negative about how Kidd might be parting.

Remember when Stephon left? That was on bad terms, the the Nets weren't shy about saying it like it was in the media.

Post #104 » by **tkb** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:26 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Yeah I might have been overly harsh. I have to ask though: Is there ever a situation where management is happy when a player goes public with a trade request?

The Nets should have gotten rid of Scott instead of Kidd. Kidd was more valuable. The question is whether Kidd really knew what he was doing when he demanded Scott go. I honestly don't have a problem with star players getting coaches fired if they're right, but I'd see proof of being right *always* comes with improved success. That success obviously didn't come, so Kidd deserves criticism particularly when the issues he's had elsewhere. You can rope Martin and Jefferson into that too but we all know that if the two of them had had the problem and Kidd said he wanted Scott to stay, Scott would have stayed.

The only way to compare is if the team stays intact. Scott got fired at mid season in 03-04, and for the second half of the season the Nets were considerably better (51 win pace second half compared to 43 win pace first half). Then in the off season Kenyon (who was an all star) gets traded to the Nuggets in a sign and trade and the Nets add Vince changing the dynamic of the team. Instead of being a team with a good interior player, they were now mainly perimeter oriented. We can't conclude one way or the other IMO. The way Scott coached back then wasn't the right way, and after adjusting from it he's now looking like one of the best coaches out there (kudos to him for that), but the little evidence we have, the Nets did perform better without Scott when they had the same core intact.

Post #105 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:28 am

tkb wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I guess we see things differently. I tend to look at leadership shown on court first and foremost. Jason Kidd does have excellent leadership qualities as far as basketball goes. He does have his off court problems for sure, but downplaying his basketball leadership is a bit silly IMO. On a basketball court, he's every bit the leader a Steve Nash or a Tim Duncan is for instance.

Who could have led team USA better than Kidd did this summer? No one could IMO, and that (to me) is a sign that Kidd is an ideal leader when put in the right situation. That he is sick of losing is if anything a good sign as far as competitiveness goes, and I've yet to see the Nets stating anything negative about how Kidd might be parting.

Remember when Stephon left? That was on bad terms, the the Nets weren't shy about saying it like it was in the media.

Well there's no doubt that Kidd's BBIQ, in which I include on court leadership, is sky high. When I think of overall leadership though, off court stuff is big.

I think the idea of "an ideal leader when put in the right situation" should honestly be damning with faint praise. When the situation's good, you don't need a great leader. It's when the situation isn't that great you need that leadership. If you've been following football this year, note what a great teammate Randy Moss is in New England after being a terrible one elsewhere: When put in the right situation, *everybody* is a good teammate.

Hairy Midget · Post #106 » by **Hairy Midget** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:30 am

Go to Orlando for expirings and picks plz

That Nicka · Post #107 » by **That Nicka** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:35 am

Orlando seems like the best fit to me...

Puertorique · Post #108 » by **Puertorique** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:45 am

So what teams could he help? I always ask that question when rumors about a player comes up.

Would the Heat be willing to make one big trade to try to make another run to a title. Would Jayson Williams (expiring contract) 1st rd pick top 10 protected and maybee someone like Dorrell Wright be enough for the Nets to take?

LA Lakers would be ideal for Kidd but I dont think they have the players or a high enough pick for the Nets to pull the trade.

Orlando and Denver. Both teams could use him but like the Lakers I don't see how these two teams could accomodate a deal for Kidd. Maybee if Nene didn't have the injuries/health concerns Denver might have been able to pull something off. I don't see it now though.

A dark horse team I see in this is Dallas. Is Michael Finley's contract available for trade? I know he was one of the players used in the Allan Houston rule. Since he was waived in that situation does that make his contract tradeable if so I could see Dallas considering moving D.Harris, George, a pick and Finley's contract. If not they would have to give up a lot more and I don't think they would make that drastic of a change to the lineup. Anothe possibility could be Shawn Bradley's contract. Once again I'm not sure if that could be traded though.

Any other thoughts on where he could go?

RoyceDa59 · Post #109 » by **RoyceDa59** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:46 am

I disagree. Kidd is much better suited for an up tempo style, Orlando is not the ideal fit. He would fair well in Denver, as the wiretap suggests. A core of Kidd, Iverson, Melo and Camby would certainly have as good a chance as anyone at the title.

Rasheeed!!! · Post #110 » by **Rasheeed!!!** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:46 am

lmao@ proposed Miami-NJN trade, hehehe, send Zo back to NJ

That Nicka · Post #111 » by **That Nicka** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:57 am

Puertorique wrote:LA Lakers would be ideal for Kidd but I dont think they have the players or a high enough pick for the Nets to pull the trade.

Lakers need a PG that can hit the open jumper.... Fisher and Farmar are doing an excellent job...

Lakers would have to give up too much for a player that wouldnt fit half as well... if it aint broke, dont fix it

That Nicka · Post #112 » by **That Nicka** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:59 am

RoyceDa59 wrote:I disagree. Kidd is much better suited for an up tempo style, Orlando is not the ideal fit. He would fair well in Denver, as the wiretap suggests. A core of Kidd, Iverson, Melo and Camby would certainly have as good a chance as anyone at the title.

So who would the Nets take back? Nene who is out with cancer, or KMart who the Nets couldve re-signed if they wanted to AND has like 64 mil owed to him with 2 micro-factured knees?

theTHIEF · Post #113 » by **theTHIEF** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:03 am

Denver would HAVE to come off of AI or Camby, plus Kleiza is a good target to shoot for as well...and I doubt that NJ takes KMart, or any team really unless he was bought out...and im not sure of too many teams interested in Nene, aside from the most recent issue, he's had many problems...tough spot if the Nuggs are really interested...

That Nicka · Post #114 » by **That Nicka** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:10 am

thEthIEf wrote:Denver would HAVE to come off of AI or Camby, plus Kleiza is a good target to shoot for as well...and I doubt that NJ takes KMart, or any team really unless he was bought out...and im not sure of too many teams interested in Nene, aside from the most recent issue, he's had many problems...tough spot if the Nuggs are really interested...

Yup Nuggz would have to give up either Iverson or Camby....

If they gave up Iverson it would be lateral at best IMO

Camby is the anchor of that team and, ironically, the only one of their big men that can stay healthy... Like George Karl said: "the only person that they cant afford to lose to injury on that team is Marcus Camby"... It cant be put into words how much they would lose

Ballings7 · Post #115 » by **Ballings7** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:11 am

RoyceDa59 wrote:He would fair well in Denver, as the wiretap suggests.

He would overall.

But the article just states Denver being interested, Schwartz generally talking to the Nets about dealing him, and the Nets possibly moving Kidd. It's just stating what's there, not something legitimate for the Nuggets to get Kidd.

Also, Denver just lacks the pieces alone, unless the Nets are just dumb, or the Nuggets give up AI or Camby. Which is unlikely at best, and part of getting Kidd is to play him with those two guys.

Post #116 » by **tkb** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:33 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Well there's no doubt that Kidd's BBIQ, in which I include on court leadership, is sky high. When I think of overall leadership though, off court stuff is big.

I think the idea of "an ideal leader when put in the right situation" should honestly be damning with faint praise. When the situation's good, you don't need a great leader. It's when the situation isn't that great you need that leadership. If you've been following football this year, note what a great teammate Randy Moss is in New England after being a terrible one elsewhere: When put in the right situation, *everybody* is a good teammate.

Where do you rank Kidd's on court basketball leading abilities among the top PGs in the league?

lovehoops01 · Post #117 » by **lovehoops01** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:57 am

WheywethWordz wrote:I think the Heat are a darkhorse in this thing, everyone talks about Orlando's expiring contracts but Miami could package Jwill, RDavis and/or Zo's deal (for salaries matching only) and add in Daequan Cook or Dorell Wright + a 1st rounder (not in 08 tho) and I think that is as enticing a package as NJ might get.

Riley doesnt want to rebuild, he needs a quick fix and he needs it now while Shaq is finishing out his contract and Wade is gearing up for free agency.

Jason Williams (expiring), Ricky Davis (expiring), Daequan Cook (good young talent) and a future 1st round draft pick or cash considerations doesnt seem far behind what any other team is able to offer.........

Orlando can offer Turkoglu (dont know if they would give him up tho) with the expirings of Arroyo, Dooling and Garrity.

if the Magic wont deal Turkoglu then they are out of the running for him pretty much.

Just out of curiosity, Miami isn't really giving up anything in that deal you propose above. I'm not saying that Orlando would want to make a deal -- I have no idea because they might prefer to stick with their collection of a little younger guys around Dwight. But if they did want to make a deal excluding Turkoglu, why couldn't they just throw in a first-round pick with those players off their roster that you name and maybe Keith Bogans -- or if you want younger talent J.J. Redick? You're saying that Daequan Cook is as good as Turkoglu? Because the only other thing you're offering up is expiring contracts and a draft pick. I'm not saying that New Jersey cannot get a better deal. I just don't see how the Miami deal is that much better. And as far as Miami goes, doesn't it want to bring in some young talent that will ensure that Wade wants to stay there for the long term?

Honestly, I don't know why he would want to go West unless he has some old grudges he wants to settle. There are a lot of good teams there already. I can think of 4 or 5 teams in the East that I think he could help a lot -- at least for a year or two. It's just whether those teams have or are willing to give up what New Jersey is asking for. I'm not going to take a chance on giving them any ideas they haven't already thought of, though.

atlsun · Post #118 » by **atlsun** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:58 am

tkb wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Where do you rank Kidd's on court basketball leading abilities among the top PGs in the league?

#1

Post #119 » by **tkb** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:03 pm

I do too.

Post #120 » by **miller31time** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:39 pm

What do you mean by "Kidd's on court basketball leading abilities"? Do you mean if he's able to lead an effective and efficient offense, or do you mean if he's able to get his teammates' attention and respect?

Because if it's the first, then he's being overrated in that aspect (at least for this season and presumably, all future seasons). Heck, even if it's the 2nd, then I'd question why the Nets aren't running on all cylinders. I don't think anyone would question that they have the talent level to be an upper-echelon Eastern Conference team. And one of the few reasons I'd say they are struggling is because they aren't being properly motivated (once again, among other things).

In either definition, Nash ranks above Kidd (IMHO), and I'd put Paul and Williams ahead of him as well.