Chris Paul

[2poor]

Yeah I'm not going to really get involved in this thread but I mean geez suckfish there are a TON of fallacies in your post.

Do you really watch Chris Paul (and Deron) on a regular basis?

Deron is a better defender? Why? Because he's bigger? You almost seem to be taking some sort of backwards approach...immediately assuming that because Chris Paul leads the league in steals he's somehow bad at defense, or something. While I do think people generally overstate steals and how it relates to defense, I think you're going even beyond that.

Paul can't finish strong? What? Yeah, he's crafty at times, but he's built like a defensive back and he plays like one too. He's not afraid of contact whatsoever and does a great job absorbing the contact AND finishing.

High risk player who makes high risk passes? Why do the Hornets have such low turnovers per game then? Why does Paul have such a stellar A/T ratio?

[carrottop12]

Paul has definitely upped his game this season and their record shows it. He is outscoring Deron by 1 point per game and averages 1 assist more per game, so he has him as far as those stats go.

I don't think it's fair to say these guys play in anywhere close to the same system, and to say Deron has the same freedom, or the same opportunities as Paul would be insane.

I am curious to see what would happen with Paul had his team made it to the WCF last season and was all of a sudden he was a marked player on a marked team which despite their record they aren't yet. Definitely not as much as the Jazz are.

Also, I like the way Deron scores in relation to his teammates, he definitely fits the Jazz better in that area, if CP3 was asked to do that I don't think he'd be close to the player he is right now as he tends to get a lot of his buckets off or little floaters in the lane that wouldn't be available with the way teams tend to just pack it in against the Jazz.

It's still a very interesting debate, anyone who says CP3 has surpassed Deron in anyway IMO is purely looking at where the Hornets are compared to the Jazz, (reminding everyone how much the Deron haters discounted team record as a measurement of a players ability) the stats are close, both lead in seperate catergories, and both have definitely lived up to their expectations coming into the NBA.

On a side note, I still don't believe the Hornets are built for the playoffs, and honestly believe despite their record or where they finish they will be hard pressed to get out of the first round. Teams with out reliable big men who can get out and score always tend to struggle, it's why the Nuggets never make it anywhere, why the Lakers haven't though I believe they will this year, and why the Warriors weren't a real threat once they played a go to low post team.

[suckfish]

I understand this is a pretty touchy subject, I should have worded my post better because honestly reading back on it I can see why you have picked various points out. Your right, I don't get to see Paul or Williams every night like Jazz or Hornets fans, so I'm probably not the best guy to compare the two.

I didn't say Paul couldn't finish strong, the point I was making was that Paul is more of a finesse player who finishes with a soft touch more often than he will finish with a strong power move. Williams isn't exactly a beast either, but he can finish stronger around the basket than Paul IMO.

I'm not saying that because Paul gets a lot of steals that it's a misconception that he is a good defender. He isn't poor, he is extremely quick and reads the passing lanes very well, my point is that some people often use the fact that he gets a lot of steals to backup their point that he is a good defender, when of course defense is a lot deeper than the steals column. I think Paul is a very good perimeter defender, however when completely evaluating the two players defensively, size does indeed play a factor. Teams with bigger point guards can look to exploit height mismatches with Paul, with Deron they can't do that, and while Paul is quicker than Deron, Deron isn't exactly slow either.

I've said my piece, and I will admit that I should have worded my post better, it looks as if I'm exaggerating certain points a little, however I don't think my points are all that outrageous or inaccurate.

[2poor]

On a side note, I still don't believe the Hornets are built for the playoffs, and honestly believe despite their record or where they finish they will be hard pressed to get out of the first round. Teams with out reliable big men who can get out and score always tend to struggle, it's why the Nuggets never make it anywhere, why the Lakers haven't though I believe they will this year, and why the Warriors weren't a real threat once they played a go to low post team.

Hornets have plenty of reliable big men who can score in plenty of different ways, you act like you're still watching last year's games.

West is .5ppg and .7rpg from being one of only 5 or 6 people in the league to average 20/10 (Chris Paul being another).

Chandler averages 12/12 along with leading the league in offensive rebounding. You don't even have to run plays for Chandler and he still gets his double-doubles. But if you want, he actually does have some low post moves that at the very least can get an opposing team's bigs in foul trouble.

Melvin Ely off the bench is another solid low post scorer, especially so against second-unit guys.

Welcome to the 07-08 season.

[2poor]

I'm not saying that because Paul gets a lot of steals that it's a misconception that he is a good defender. He isn't poor, he is extremely quick and reads the passing lanes very well, my point is that some people often use the fact that he gets a lot of steals to backup their point that he is a good defender, when of course defense is a lot deeper than the steals column. I think Paul is a very good perimeter defender, however when completely evaluating the two players defensively, size does indeed play a factor. Teams with bigger point guards can look to exploit height mismatches with Paul, with Deron they can't do that, and while Paul is quicker than Deron, Deron isn't exactly slow either.

I'll just leave this with a few points:

-Chris Paul has only lost 3 match-ups all year long (Parker/Billups/Tinsley), none since the beginning of December. link

-21 of the Hornets 33 wins have been double-digit ones, they're 20-0 when scoring 100+ and 6-1 in games decided by 5 points or less.

If Chris Paul was really anywhere near as bad as you say, none of this would be happening. He's actually well above-average and very rarely gets "abused" by bigger guards. He does however, "abuse" bigger guards who don't have the greatest lateral quickness. I swear I read so much hearsay in this particular comparison these days.

[erudite23]

Well, I always find it funny when people say "this guy is only x amount away from being one of only a few people that have accomplished x feat....."

If the bench mark was 19 and 9, instead of 20/10, then it would suddenly bulge from 5 or 6 guys to 13 or 14 guys, and suddenly it wouldn't be so damn exclusive now, would it? That line of reasoning is ridiculous, and I wish people would quit using it. A benchmark is a minimum amount, and there is a reason why the cut off is where it is. Most 20 and 10 guys are 21, 22, 23 point scorers and at least 11ish rebounders. Very few of them are bare-bones 20.1 points and 10.1 rebound. I have heard that "almost a 20 and 10 guy--only 6 other players in the league who can claim that!" refrain far too many times over the last two weeks, and I wish it would stop.

The Hornets as a team are having a nice ride, and I'm happy for the fans (what few of them there are) and especially for the city. But we'll see how it goes. Every young team going through its break out cycle has its statement-run, where the team gets hot and grabs the attention of the nation before cooling off and going through the normal growth curve that every team must go through.

The Jazz had theirs at the beginning of last season. Denver had theirs to end the year a couple seasons back. Portland was going through theirs recently....it happens. As great as things have been for them, they are still only 1 game up for the lead in the west, and aren't too far away from falling out of the playoff picture entirely. All it would take is one bad month like the Jazz had in December and suddenly they would be on the outside looking in. Not only that, but this is a team that has traditionally done well in the middle of the season before crumbling at the end of the year.

Wake me in April.

[suckfish]

As bad as I say? Whats that? That I said that his height or lack of counts against him defensively?

Who said he gets 'abused'? Who said he was never above average defensively?

I think your reading into it a little far, I'm not saying Paul is bad defensively. Just I think Williams has the edge defensively.

I'm leaving it there, it's not a discussion I feel passionate about, nor is it a discussion where I favor one player strongly over the other.

[2poor]

Well, I always find it funny when people say "this guy is only x amount away from being one of only a few people that have accomplished x feat....."

If the bench mark was 19 and 9, instead of 20/10, then it would suddenly bulge from 5 or 6 guys to 13 or 14 guys, and suddenly it wouldn't be so damn exclusive now, would it? That line of reasoning is ridiculous, and I wish people would quit using it. A benchmark is a minimum amount, and there is a reason why the cut off is where it is. Most 20 and 10 guys are 21, 22, 23 point scorers and at least 11ish rebounders. Very few of them are bare-bones 20.1 points and 10.1 rebound. I have heard that "almost a 20 and 10 guy--only 6 other players in the league who can claim that!" refrain far too many times over the last two weeks, and I wish it would stop.

Interesting, I find it funny when people say "this team has no low post scoring" when it isn't at all true. I don't really care about the 20/10 plateau but the point was more that he's there and he's a force. The near 20/10 he's averaging tells the tale and those exclusive company he'd join in so doing is good for relativity. He's been getting stronger as he's gone on, FG% continues to climb, he's averaged over 20ppg this month and averaged over 10rpg last month.

Every young team going through its break out cycle has its statement-run, where the team gets hot and grabs the attention of the nation before cooling off and going through the normal growth curve that every team must go through.

Yeah, I know it has become pretty common practice for teams to go 17-2 for month-long stretches over the course of a season.

Oh wait, apparently these things don't happen as often as you think;

The Hornets have won nine consecutive games, their best streak since the 1998-99 season, and the most notable statistics from those nine wins might be the margins of victory.

The Hornets have won the past nine games by an average of 20.7 points, including five victories by 24 points or more. According to team officials, the Hornets are the second team in NBA history to win seven consecutive games by at least 14 points.

The other team to do that, the 2003-04 Detroit Pistons, won the NBA Finals.

[2poor]

As bad as I say? Whats that? That I said that his height or lack of counts against him defensively?

Who said he gets 'abused'? Who said he was never above average defensively?

I think your reading into it a little far, I'm not saying Paul is bad defensively. Just I think Williams has the edge defensively.

I'm leaving it there, it's not a discussion I feel passionate about, nor is it a discussion where I favor one player strongly over the other.

But you've given no reason why Williams has the "edge" beyond being bigger.

[carrottop12]

-= original quote snipped =-



Hornets have plenty of reliable big men who can score in plenty of different ways, you act like you're still watching last year's games.

West is .5ppg and .7rpg from being one of only 5 or 6 people in the league to average 20/10 (Chris Paul being another).

I don't see West hacking it with the playoffs against the best big men in the league, maybe I am being naive, but his game just doesn't seem suited to dominate a 7 game series, and everyone knows, in the playoffs little guys are most effective when their big man is playing well also. I think all you have to do is look back the Jazz last season, as soon as Boozer fell off in the playoffs, despite what Deron was doing, the Jazz struggled. The same thing will happen to Hornets in the playoffs, and my guess is it happens in the first round.

[2poor]

I don't see West hacking it with the playoffs against the best big men in the league, maybe I am being naive, but his game just doesn't seem suited to dominate a 7 game series, and everyone knows, in the playoffs little guys are most effective when their big man is playing well also. I think all you have to do is look back the Jazz last season, as soon as Boozer fell off in the playoffs, despite what Deron was doing, the Jazz struggled. The same thing will happen to Hornets in the playoffs, and my guess is it happens in the first round.

I can't really take your bias-infused points seriously anymore, I went through this last year with you and came out clean on the other side. You say what you hope will happen more than you make objective points as to what could happen and why it would happen.

If you stop West, make sure you're not doing it by doubling off with Peja's man, or you're letting a 45% 3-point shooter have his way. Probably don't want to double off Mo Pete either as he's shown he can still get hot with the best of them. Double off Chandler if you want him to get easy dunks/offensive rebounds all night. Oh, do this all while single-covering Chris Paul.

This team has plenty of ways to score and has frontcourt guys who can actually defend.

[carrottop12]

-= original quote snipped =-



I can't really take your bias-infused points seriously anymore, I went through this last year with you and came out clean on the other side. You say what you hope will happen more than you make objective points as to what could happen and why it would happen.

If you stop West, make sure you're not doing it by doubling off with Peja's man, or you're letting a 45% 3-point shooter have his way. Probably don't want to double off Mo Pete either as he's shown he can still get hot with the best of them. Double off Chandler if you want him to get easy dunks/offensive rebounds all night. Oh, do this all while single-covering Chris Paul.

This team has plenty of ways to score and has frontcourt guys who can actually defend.

In a perfect world your offense works nicely, unfortunately the playoffs are a different story, it comes down to a 2-3 man game, and I just don't believe your three man game is good enough to stand up to other teams in the west unless you face someone like the Blazers who are even less well suited for the playoffs.

I understand you are excited about your team and for good reason, they are in first place in the West, but be realisitic, you are only a few games up on most other playoffs teams, and all of them are just as capable of going on big runs as you are.

Be happy now, but realize anyone in the West is capable of finding themselves out of the playoffs in no time, just see the Lakers.

[2poor]

Defense and taking care of the ball is far more important, and these are two things the Hornets already excel at. I don't think just because its the playoffs they're all the sudden going to forget how to play defense or think its okay to throw the ball out of bounds.

The Hornets aren't as one-dimensional as you hope.

[DelaneyRudd]

Yup, 2poor is right about the Hornets, and wrong about the Nuggets.

[2poor]

Yup, 2poor is right about the Hornets, and wrong about the Nuggets.

What can I say about the Nuggets, 'SSDD' comes to mind.

[The Sheik]

Lets just wait till Monday and see what happens, unless either team struggles the rest of this week, they will be the 2 hottest teams in the west.

[The Sheik]

found this kind of funny...With all the pub the Hornets are getting right now and the more then likely player of the month status that people are bestowing upon Paul, look at the numbers for this month.

CP3

47.2 FG%
25.7 3%
90.2 FT%

18.7 ppg
11.8 apg
4.0 rpg
1.7 spg
2.5 tpg

11 double doubles
12-1 Team Record

D-Will

52.7 FG%
42.9 3%
83.3 FT%

17.9 ppg
11.6 apg
3.0 rpg
1.2 spg
3.1 tpg

9 double doubles
10-2 Team Record

Either way it looks pretty good to me.

[Pai Gow]

Before you pump your great record and stretch right now 2Poor, I believe your schedule was one of the top 5 weakest so far according to Hollinger, you just might be getting a little ahead of yourself BUT will say the road record is very impressive.

[2poor]

meh, you can pull the SOS card if you want, but isn't that what good teams are supposed to do? Beat the crap out of weaker opponents? Not to mention they've beat plenty of good opponents in the stretch, including the most reason mopping of SA, in SA no less.

The Hornets have won nine consecutive games, their best streak since the 1998-99 season, and the most notable statistics from those nine wins might be the margins of victory.

The Hornets have won the past nine games by an average of 20.7 points, including five victories by 24 points or more. According to team officials, the Hornets are the second team in NBA history to win seven consecutive games by at least 14 points.

The other team to do that, the 2003-04 Detroit Pistons, won the NBA Finals.

21/33 wins have been by double-digits as well. League-best record in games decided by 5 points or less. Haven't lost an OT game in a few years (literally), and haven't lost when scoring over 100ppg (20-0). 23-8 against the West, 16-5 on the road, etc.

So yeah, you can point to SOS if you want, but its kind of a feeble argument IMO when so many other stats can be tossed around that point to that of a good team and not a lucky team.

[erudite23]

Sure, but the fact that they have played the 3rd easiest schedule in the league, while the Jazz have played the 5th hardest, should at least be factored in to the equation.

I'm not going to say that its a huge factor, because any team that goes into San Antonio (where the Jazz haven't won since Jesus was in diapers) and kicks that ass like they did deserves props, no questions asked.

Still, there is always 5 or 6 "flavor of the month" teams in every NBA season that look completely and utterly unstoppable for a stretch and have everyone proclaiming them as legit contenders before collapsing like a house of cards later in the season/playoffs. The Jazz had to go through this process last year and make a deep run in the playoffs to earn their "legit" status in my book, and the Hornets are going to have to do the same before they are anything more than the soup de jour.

But hey, feel free to get your hopes way up. That's a great idea.

That's always a great idea for a team with Peja, West, CP3 and Chandler all on it.