Official Jason Kidd Thread

[LLcoleJ]

Kidd's impact isn't any higher than what his stats show. You can say that he tends to play better, i.e raise his stats above his average, when the team needs him more(like the situation we're in right now), but that still means that you're measuring his impact by his stats.

People talk about Fish's intangibles and all that, well, seems like he's simply playing on a higher statistical level than before to me. To me, intangibles are overrated, unless you can show that they have an effect on a tangible level, if that makes any sense.

To me, heart is simply the will to retain your stats in tough situations. Clutch is the tendency to get your stats in tough situations than easy, but in the end, you still can't say that this guy is contributing beyond his stats, because most likely, what happens is that the clutch player is able to maintain higher stats than the weak-minded player, when the going gets tough, which gives the appearance that he has more "intangibles" than the weak-minded player, but in the end, the reason he's contributing more can be explained on a statistical level.

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[Lakers05]

Though I do agree with KG's impact being much higher than his stats, it's called defense and interior presence(seems like everyone's OPP PER has dropped by 4 or 5 points with him there), which admittedly are very poorly presented by the traditional stats. However, while you can argue the same thing for Kidd, it's on a much smaller level, for himself only basically. But that's why sometimes I use PER and PER differential, because they're a little more accurate than EFF in that they measure defense.

[Lakers05]

Kidd's impact isn't any higher than what his stats show. You can say that he tends to play better, i.e raise his stats above his average, when the team needs him more(like the situation we're in right now), but that still means that you're measuring his impact by his stats.

People talk about Fish's intangibles and all that, well, seems like he's simply playing on a higher statistical level than before to me. To me, intangibles are overrated, unless you can show that they have an effect on a tangible level, if that makes any sense.

To me, heart is simply the will to retain your stats in tough situations. Clutch is the tendency to get your stats in tough situations than easy, but in the end, you still can't say that this guy is contributing beyond his stats, because most likely, what happens is that the clutch player is able to maintain higher stats than the weak-minded player, when the going gets tough, which gives the appearance that he has more "intangibles" than the weak-minded player, but in the end, the reason he's contributing more can be explained on a statistical level.

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I hate these types of responses, though I bet if I responded with a ROFL emoticon, I'd get banned. If you see anything you disagreed with, then respond to it, otherwise, shut it!




Please?

[LLcoleJ]

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I hate these types of responses, though I bet if I responded with a ROFL emoticon, I'd get banned. If you see anything you disagreed with, then respond to it, otherwise, shut it!




Please?

You made a post that was long winded, non-sensical and pointless. I responded in a manner that everyone here was thinking.

Why dont you make a point for once?

[Gerald3Wallace]

i would start a package with farmar, kwame, radman maybe another filler and some picks...that said kidd will start, fisher will back him up, and what better than having jason kidd and derek fisher tutor critt?

[incontrol__]

i would start a package with farmar, kwame, radman maybe another filler and some picks...that said kidd will start, fisher will back him up, and what better than having jason kidd and derek fisher tutor critt?

Yep. Agree.

[Lakers05]

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You made a post that was long winded, non-sensical and pointless. I responded in a manner that everyone here was thinking.

Why dont you make a point for once?

How is it pointless? I made a point that Kidd's contributions do not go beyond his stats. If Kidd is making his teammates better, it'll show up in his assists, etc. I also admit that Kidd looks like the type of player that is more likely to play at a higher statistical level when you need him, but in the end, it is still the stats that determine his contribution.

When people say this guy is a winner, it simply means that this guy tends to raise his stats in tough situations. However, you can't say Kidd would help us with his triple-doubles and then also say his impact goes beyond his stats, because his current stats already include his production in tough situations. To say that his impact goes beyond his stats and then include his stats is to count the same production twice.

If you want to say that Kidd would play at a higher level here than with the Nets, then yes, that's entirely possible. In that case, the correct argument is that Kidd's current stats don't represent his maximum potential stats, not that his contribution goes beyond his stats.

[Lakers05]

BTW, it would be very tough to have three guys averaging 20+ EFF on the same team. In fact, there are no trios doing that currently, so if Kidd is able to maintain his EFF here, then he would be playing at a very high level. We would win a lot and thus give the appearance that he's a winner, when in truth, his abilility to maintain his stats(which is more likely since they're rare, as in no one on the team can duplicate them, at least if you're talking about his assists) make him a winner.

[LLcoleJ]

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How is it pointless? I made a point that Kidd's contributions do not go beyond his stats. If Kidd is making his teammates better, it'll show up in his assists, etc. I also admit that Kidd looks like the type of player that is more likely to play at a higher statistical level when you need him, but in the end, it is still the stats that determine his contribution.

When people say this guy is a winner, it simply means that this guy tends to raise his stats in tough situations. However, you can't say Kidd would help us with his triple-doubles and then also say his impact goes beyond his stats, because his current stats already include his production in tough situations. To say that his impact goes beyond his stats and then include his stats is to count the same production twice.

If you want to say that Kidd would play at a higher level here than with the Nets, then yes, that's entirely possible. In that case, the correct argument is that Kidd's current stats don't represent his maximum potential stats, not that his contribution goes beyond his stats.

oh that clears everything up.Edit: Green Font

[blix]

These are the career stats for Bruce Bowen - arguably one of the best man defenders to ever play the game. His impact goes beyond the stats.


CAREER 755 Min: 28.3 FG%: 40.7 FT%: 57.4 3PT%: 38.8 Boards: 2.9 Assists: 1.3 Steals: 0.9 Blocks: 0.4 Points: 6.4

/thread

[J Rob]

Unfortunately Lakers05 represents a large body of fantasy/stat driven fans today.

Assists for example only measure the last pass made, not a potentially great one before that may have created the entire play...they also don't record if a player got fouled on the play, etc.

Stats also don't measure defensive pressure, controlling the tempo of the game, leadership, chemistry, charges taken, help defense, boxing out for another teammate, diving for loose balls, etc.

And anyone who's played basketball knows the importance of all these things and more: they're the difference between winning and losing.

For his credit, Kidd does bring these things...along with his near triple-double stats.

[Slava]

Kidd >> Farmar and this coming from a big fan of both of those players. Kidd is one of the rare players that can see a play as it develops and makes the perfect weighted pass to finish it. Farmar being a better scorer at this point in time, its still not enough to offset Kidd's play making ability, lock down perimeter D and not to forget the defensive rebounding that he brings in.

Kidd is a triple double a night guy and I can't say that about any other player since may be Magic Johnson.

[chefy]

Privately, Kidd is telling friends that he wants to go to Dallas

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archi ... to_dallas/


EDIT: I fixed your link because the one you posted was not the link.

[Slava]

Given a choice, Kidd's options would be:

Lakers
Cavaliers
Mavaericks

in that order.

[J Rob]

Kidd >> Farmar and this coming from a big fan of both of those players. Kidd is one of the rare players that can see a play as it develops and makes the perfect weighted pass to finish it. Farmar being a better scorer at this point in time, its still not enough to offset Kidd's play making ability, lock down perimeter D and not to forget the defensive rebounding that he brings in.

Kidd is a triple double a night guy and I can't say that about any other player since may be Magic Johnson.

I agree entirely, there's no comparing the current players.

I'd love it if there was a way to get Kidd without Farmar though.

[incontrol__]

We can't afford to let Kidd go to Dallas or Denver (and i'd absolutely hate him going to Cleveland).

[LLcoleJ]

what can Dallas or Denver offer?

[Slava]

^^Absolutely. If only the Lakers FO show some serious interest, we'll be the favourites.

[El Hardee]

I dont have a membership to ESPN insider, but I heard there is a article stating that NJ offered us Kidd for Lamar,Farmar and some change. Mitch declined. I'm not too sure if I would do it either.

[Tommy Trojan]

It would not be pretty for the West if Kidd comes to Dallas.

IMO I think Dallas would be the fav