Salim Stoudamire frustrated by lack of playing time

[killbuckner]

Lue can play PG- Salim is a terrible passer even for a SG.

[JoshB914]

Lue hits shots and doesn't play D. Salim misses shots and doesn't play D.

[High 5]

Lue can play PG- Salim is a terrible passer even for a SG.

Josh Smith can play PG, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Salim isn't a terrible passer. He's not a great passer, but among SGs he wouldn't stick out as bad.

[killbuckner]

High 5- Salim was 58th out of 66 SHOOTING GUARDS in assist ratio last season. Lue's Assist ratio was more than twice as high. Actually Salim actually had the higher turnover ratio as well. Like I said- Lue can play PG, Salim has shown since he entered the league that he is absolutely incapable of playing PG.

[High 5]

Assists aren't everything. Salim moves the ball around, he doesn't dribble around in circles like Lue. Most of Lue's 1.8 assists come off of easy plays like the fast break.

[conleyorbust]

Again kb, I'd like to point out that before this season (the two seasons where Lue and Salim got comparable minutes), Stoudamire had a greater positive effect on the team. Better +/-, net production, stuff like that. I know you value that metric in your point guard.

This is not an endorsement of Sal because I think Lue is pretty bad and Sal hasn't looked right this season. It is just a statement of fact that by your preferred metric for the position, Stoudamire has historically been a better option than Lue.

[killbuckner]

.....

[killbuckner]

COB- the thing is that I don't think that Salim has been played at PG much if at all since he has been in the league. As I said- he is a lousy passer even for a SG which makes him absolutely incapable of playing the point. If you want to say that he can be productive playing SG when Childress or JJ plays the point then maybe I can believe that, but he just doesn't at all have the skillset of a PG.

[High 5]

He made a couple passes tonight that were more impressive than any I can remember from Lue.

[conleyorbust]

COB- the thing is that I don't think that Salim has been played at PG much if at all since he has been in the league. As I said- he is a lousy passer even for a SG which makes him absolutely incapable of playing the point. If you want to say that he can be productive playing SG when Childress or JJ plays the point then maybe I can believe that, but he just doesn't at all have the skillset of a PG.

I don't necessarilly disagree that he isn't now and never will be a viable option as a point guard but I'd also argue that Lue is most effective in the half court when he is playing off the ball as a spot up shooter to. Since neither one of them are particularly effective as facilitators of the offense (although as you point out, Lue is a more productive passer) than its best to run them as undersized 2-guards anyway with someone like Chil or Joe as the de facto pg. Since Sal is a far better defender than Lue (I know Sal is bad but there are degrees) and he has been as good or better for the team when given equal minutes I think that it is silly to just dismiss him and say that there are D-League players that give you more. Unless you think there are D-Leaguers that give you more than Lue as well, which might be the case.

[killbuckner]

COB- I think that for both Lue and Salim their value to the team is entirely in their ability to play PG. I wouldn't ever have Lue playing SG- there are just other guys who bring more in that role. Lue has been an adequate backup PG in the league for a long time- and I do think for lots of teams you want your backup PG to carry a heavier scoring load. I don't think that Lue is a great PG- but he is useful. If you are talking about which one makes the better SG then Salim's lack of passing is much less of an issue but I don't think if I were coach I would ever play either of them at SG.

[HoopsGuru25]

Salim also played no point guard in college which is a very bad sign for a 6'1 player. Even shoot 1st players with little pg skills like Nate Robinson and Daniel Gibson ran the point for their college team.

[conleyorbust]

COB- I think that for both Lue and Salim their value to the team is entirely in their ability to play PG. I wouldn't ever have Lue playing SG- there are just other guys who bring more in that role. Lue has been an adequate backup PG in the league for a long time- and I do think for lots of teams you want your backup PG to carry a heavier scoring load. I don't think that Lue is a great PG- but he is useful. If you are talking about which one makes the better SG then Salim's lack of passing is much less of an issue but I don't think if I were coach I would ever play either of them at SG.

When you play them together (which often happened when Sal got burn), positions were fairly nominal. Otherwise they were both small guards whose best asset was scoring ability, in that capicity Salim Stoudamire's net effect on the team was the same or better than Tyronne Lue's. If you judge them by how the net effect of their play with the other players on the team, what does it matter what position you play them at? If Stoudamire is less of a statistical liability on the court, then who are you to say that he shouldn't play because of his style? Your whole argument for why Lue/AJ were better options than Law was that they have less of a negative impact on the team (I agree by the way), however when the same argument is applied to a different player you throw it out using a purely technical note.

I'm not trying to say I think Sal is better than Lue, I'm just trying to understand you justification for saying Lue is fine as a productive player while Sal shouldn't be in the league when, by your own method, Sal has been (in past seasons) the better player.

[D21]

...
But next year we will see Salim sign with a team without a moron for a coach, people around the league will take notice of his ability and that will be that.

Right now the only example of the players that "can't do anything well" who were playing here since Woody got here are Royal Ivy and Boris Diaw. Both IMMEDIATELY played ALOT better once they got to another team.

I can't resist to quote, because this is exactly the time to show it:

Regarding Diaw, we all see what he did in 2006, but since Stoudemire came back, it was not the same, but now, he starts to produce while playing with him.

6 of the last games of Boris Diaw where he played more than 30 minutes:
pts-rbd-ast
16---7---9
11---6---4
11---4---9
14--10---6
19---6---5
21--11---4

Royal Ivey got palying time these last days...
5 of the last games of Royal Ivey where he played more than 30 minutes:
pts-rbd-ast
19---3---6
17---2---6
14---1---8
09---8---6
11---3---7

Did management and others think these guys would put numbers like that, even if it needs some playing time ???

[smabie]

To extend that sort of research a little further...

(pts -- rbd -- ast)
Set 1:
11 -- 2 -- 3 L
-
21 -- 1 -- 1 W
37 -- 2 -- 0 L
13 -- 5 -- 4 W
10 -- 1 -- 3 L
26 -- 2 -- 3 L
21 -- 2 -- 2 W
-
23 -- 3 -- 1 L
17 -- 4 -- 0 L
14 -- 2 -- 2 L
10 -- 2 -- 7 W

Avg: 18.5 -- 2.4 -- 2.1 (4-7)

Set 2:
13 -- 7 -- 6 W
14 -- 5 -- 5 L
12 -- 7 -- 1 L
9 -- 8 -- 8 L
8 -- 2 -- 1 L
24 -- 2 -- 2 L
26 -- 3 -- 5 W
23 -- 5 -- 2 L
23 -- 4 -- 5 L
17 -- 4 -- 4 W
15 -- 4 -- 7 W
21 -- 2 -- 2 W
21 -- 1 -- 5 L
16 -- 1 -- 5 L
15 -- 4 -- 10 W
15 -- 2 -- 4 L
23 -- 5 -- 4 L
Avg: 17.4 -- 3.8 -- 4.5 (6-11)

Set 1 is Salim Stoudamire, for his career, in games in which he's played at least 30 minutes. (For the record, he's never played 40 or more.) It is separated by year and in reverse order, with his one game this year listed first, and his rookie season last. (Noteworthy, IMO, is his regression over his time with the team.)

Set 2? Joe Johnson, this season, every game in which he's played at least 30 but not more than 40 minutes. (For the record, he's played in 2 games this season under 30 minutes; every other game not listed has been at least 40.)

You can take whatever you want from these numbers, or think they're complete crap. But I think that when Salim gets a contract with a team with a good coach who's willing to use him properly -- as a SG, coming off the bench for everyday, long, quality minutes (6th/7th man), we'll be kicking ourselves. He's not a superstar, but he's definitely better than getting played once a month, when he's given time and properly coached. Something he'll never get in Atlanta, with Woodson.

[will]

I too am frustrated by Salim's lack of playing time.

I can only type out so many posts about this topic.

Just play Salim and Joe in the backcourt for the time being. Have Acie come off the bench. AJ plays only if either of those 3 cannot.

If AJ bitches, too bad.

[HMFFL]

I too am frustrated by Salim's lack of playing time.

I can only type out so many posts about this topic.

Just play Salim and Joe in the backcourt for the time being. Have Acie come off the bench. AJ plays only if either of those 3 cannot.

If AJ bitches, too bad.

Salim before AJ and Acie, no thank you.

Tyronn Lue needs to be the one pushed to the slide so Salim can get some floor time. We also need to take into account who's going to be part of this team during the future. I don't like Salim's size, but I do feel he has a better shot at being back next year over Tyronn, and I still would like to see us bring AJ back.

[conleyorbust]

I too am frustrated by Salim's lack of playing time.

I can only type out so many posts about this topic.

Just play Salim and Joe in the backcourt for the time being. Have Acie come off the bench. AJ plays only if either of those 3 cannot.

If AJ bitches, too bad.

Eh, can't really agree with you on that. AJ games where he plays like a legit NBA starter; when he has those games our team looks good... most recently against the Blazers he led our uptempo attack while we built our lead. He sucked against Pheonix but I wouldn't say that was a good game to judge any of our players.

[Rip2137]

Yes, Salim should get those 5-10-20 minutes a game that Lue gets.

If he plays well, then he can get more. Unlike Lue who seems to get more minutes the crappier he plays.

[JoshB914]

If Salim goes into a game and starts jacking up shots and missing him why would we keep him in? He should NEVER play big minutes unless his shot is falling. Which hasn't happened since the end of last season.

Woody played him A TON last year and everyone complained about it much like with Lue now. The bottom line is all of our PG's are terrible.