Webster or Outlaw

[Butter]

OK, if it comes down to it, and one has to stay and one has to go one choice, which one would you want to keep?

[BiggieSmalls]

i voted for outlaw cuz i have always been a huge fan of his but i would not want to get rid of either one of them. martell fits perfect for the starting five we are goin to have for the next however many years, but travis is starting to learn what it takes and now that he has developed into a top 6th man for us i think he woud be too vital if we wanted to stay in the playoff hunt.

if u think about it every blazer is important to this team, blake and roy and pryzbilla are the most important but the rest of them are needed to fill there roles just as badly. if u took martell out of the lineup i guess i could put james jones in there so replace the shooting but he still doesnt have the athleticism and martell was improving tremendously on defense this year so idk really

u shouldnt make me go through this cuz i feel bad singling out one player when they have all been so important to the success, its not fair!

[Jsun947]

On this team Webster. Next year we will have Oden/Przybilla, and Aldridge/Frye.

Moving Outlaw effects our rotation more and keeping Webster helps the spacing of our floor. Outlaw also has higher trade value...

[Jsun947]

Travis excels at the PF spot and thats where Nate likes to play him.

The question should be who do we keep, Frye or Outlaw?

[Butter]

i voted for outlaw cuz i have always been a huge fan of his but i would not want to get rid of either one of them. martell fits perfect for the starting five we are goin to have for the next however many years, but travis is starting to learn what it takes and now that he has developed into a top 6th man for us i think he woud be too vital if we wanted to stay in the playoff hunt.

if u think about it every blazer is important to this team, blake and roy and pryzbilla are the most important but the rest of them are needed to fill there roles just as badly. if u took martell out of the lineup i guess i could put james jones in there so replace the shooting but he still doesnt have the athleticism and martell was improving tremendously on defense this year so idk really

u shouldnt make me go through this cuz i feel bad singling out one player when they have all been so important to the success, its not fair!

Lol, I know brother, I know. But that's kind of the point. I've seen a lot of pro's/con's for both players regarding the phantom NJ/Dal/Por blockbuster, so I am interested in cutting through all of the politically correct, team first stuff.

Bottom line, who would fans choose?

[Wizenheimer]

not enough context in the poll I think.

I'd pick both till I saw the alternatives.

for instance, with the latest news in mind, a question could be which is the better forward rotation?: outlaw, webster, & jones...or outlaw, bass, jones....or bass, webster, jones.

Of course that presupposes Harris in the backcourt, and in that case I'd probably pick outlaw, bass, and jones. But it may be nice to have outlaw, bass, and webster....my head's hurting by the way

[sabi]

Really tough question to answer. At this point I'm higher on Outlaw than I am with Webster, I do have a lot of confidence in Webster tough. If Webster overcomes his mental block he will become deadly, like he was at the beginning of the season. Outlaw is doing that this season and is starting to add new skills to his repertoire. But, given that our back court would be loaded if we acquire a PG like Harris and when we bring in Rudy, I think it is easier to let go of Webster who is predominantly a SG. Having said that, I just have a huge man crush with Webster. If you don't feel it when he is nailing shots and hustling on D then you probably don't have a soul.

[Butter]

not enough context in the poll I think.

I'd pick both till I saw the alternatives.

for instance, with the latest news in mind, a question could be which is the better forward rotation?: outlaw, webster, & jones...or outlaw, bass, jones....or bass, webster, jones.

Of course that presupposes Harris in the backcourt, and in that case I'd probably pick outlaw, bass, and jones. But it may be nice to have outlaw, bass, and webster....my head's hurting by the way

I totally understand your point. But I'd like to narrow our focus from the big picture a little bit.

I understand the point that Nate likes Outlaw at PF, but fans are talking about Outlaw like he's a corner stone of the franchise. If that is true, he should be a starter. The reality is that unless the Blazers trade LMA in favor of Outlaw, he wont be a starter at the four. Plus, there's no way Outlaw can take the pounding of guarding legit starting PF's for a full season.

IMO, it's much easier, and much more realistic that Travis could compete against starting SF's in this league. I mean, look at a lot of the SF's who start. Many of them are 6'8"+, and over 230 lbs. That's still a big dude. And Travis could outquick and out jump a lot of those guys still.

Anyways, my point is that if the Blazers are going to pass on potential starters because they don't want to lose Outlaw, they need to find a starting spot for him eventually. I can't see him taking LMA's spot, so the only option is a competition between Outlaw and Webster IMO.

Hence the question, who is the franchise SF: Webster or Outlaw?

[Telfaire]

I voted for Outlaw though I'm a big Webster fan, cause Outlaw is more special and has proved himself at clutch time, and I think he is and will be a better defender, perhaps our "Durant Stopper".

Webster is very talented, but at SF we need mainly 3's and defense.

[zzaj]

It's a tough one, but I would keep Outlaw.

Even though Webster's game (especially his D) doesn't translate to the stat line all the time, Outlaw has him beat in pretty much every category, in less minutes. Some of that is probably due to the fact that Webster is playing against starting caliber SFs...

Bottom line is Outlaw has shown more improvement as well as a will to win on the court.

In 2 or 3 years though Martell really does have the tools to be Glen Rice "lite".

Edit: Butter you should have an "I trust KP more than myself" option in the poll, Lol.

[sabi]

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I totally understand your point. But I'd like to narrow our focus from the big picture a little bit.

I understand the point that Nate likes Outlaw at PF, but fans are talking about Outlaw like he's a corner stone of the franchise. If that is true, he should be a starter. The reality is that unless the Blazers trade LMA in favor of Outlaw, he wont be a starter at the four. Plus, there's no way Outlaw can take the pounding of guarding legit starting PF's for a full season.

IMO, it's much easier, and much more realistic that Travis could compete against starting SF's in this league. I mean, look at a lot of the SF's who start. Many of them are 6'8"+, and over 230 lbs. That's still a big dude. And Travis could outquick and out jump a lot of those guys still.

Anyways, my point is that if the Blazers are going to pass on potential starters because they don't want to lose Outlaw, they need to find a starting spot for him eventually. I can't see him taking LMA's spot, so the only option is a competition between Outlaw and Webster IMO.

Hence the question, who is the franchise SF: Webster or Outlaw?

I think Outlaw's role is great as it is. Coming off the bench and bringing some offense really helps the second unit. And plus, you need to control his minutes a lot more because of his respiratory condition. He gets pretty tired by the 4th quarter sometimes. So I think he's better off being that 6th or 7th man coming off the bench and lighting up the opponents bench.
I also think he's turning more into a SF.

[Butter]

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I think Outlaw's role is great as it is. Coming off the bench and bringing some offense really helps the second unit. And plus, you need to control his minutes a lot more because of his respiratory condition. He gets pretty tired by the 4th quarter sometimes. So I think he's better off being that 6th or 7th man coming off the bench and lighting up the opponents bench.
I also think he's turning more into a SF.

Sabi, that's kind of my point though. If the Blazers have a chance to get a starting quality player for a bench player, don't they have to do it? I mean, I realize that a strong bench is very important, but it's a lot easier to find a bench scorer than a starter. I mean, that role could be filled by Rudy next year. Also, all of those big shots that Outlaw has hit this year (which I loved) could be knocked down by Martell or LMA next year.

Once again, I'm not saying we should give Travis the boot, not by a long shot, but I think we would have to consider the other moving parts that could step up if he was gone. But if he's too valuable to move, then that tells me he should be a starter, IMHO.

[kumquat]

I think the problem for Martell is he always gets lost in the shuffle, he has improved enormously on defense, enough to say he's turned into a good defender when previously he was always getting beaten by his man. He just needs to step up and take more initiative on offense, getting to the lane, cutting and demanding the ball.

[cucad8]

I voted for Outlaw though I'm a big Webster fan, cause Outlaw is more special and has proved himself at clutch time, and I think he is and will be a better defender, perhaps our "Durant Stopper".

Webster is very talented, but at SF we need mainly 3's and defense.

I'm not too sure I understand you. Webster is talented, BUT we need 3's and defense from the SF spot. Outlaw offers neither of those. Webster has shown to be a decent and improving 3 point shooter, and is already, I would say, a better man to man defender than Travis is. Outlaw is always called a good defender because he gets some good blocks, but he can't guard the SF position at all.

I voted for Webster, and what I find to be unfair is people seem to want to compare the two as if they are at the same stage in their careers. Webster is in his 3rd year, Outlaw his 5th. Webster has shown way more improvement, IMO, from year 1-3 than Outlaw did in that same time frame. I think he will continue to get better, and will ultimately be a better player than Outlaw is.

[Wizenheimer]

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I totally understand your point. But I'd like to narrow our focus from the big picture a little bit.

I understand the point that Nate likes Outlaw at PF, but fans are talking about Outlaw like he's a corner stone of the franchise. If that is true, he should be a starter. The reality is that unless the Blazers trade LMA in favor of Outlaw, he wont be a starter at the four. Plus, there's no way Outlaw can take the pounding of guarding legit starting PF's for a full season.

IMO, it's much easier, and much more realistic that Travis could compete against starting SF's in this league. I mean, look at a lot of the SF's who start. Many of them are 6'8"+, and over 230 lbs. That's still a big dude. And Travis could outquick and out jump a lot of those guys still.

Anyways, my point is that if the Blazers are going to pass on potential starters because they don't want to lose Outlaw, they need to find a starting spot for him eventually. I can't see him taking LMA's spot, so the only option is a competition between Outlaw and Webster IMO.

Hence the question, who is the franchise SF: Webster or Outlaw?

trying to pin me down, eh!

first, as to if Travis can take the pounding of legitimate PF's: remember, a lot of teams don't have them, especially on the 2nd unit. How much will marion and diaw pound travis when portland plays the Suns?. Lakers: Odom maybe a little, but that's not his game and Turiaf would pound, but Travis would dust him on the other end. Al harrington and travis are a good match. You get my drift, I'm sure...some nights travis will have a problem, some nights his defender will.

You ask who the franchise SF is? well if travis can get 10 minutes a night at backup PF and 15 at backup SF, he wouldn't be the franchise SF but rather the franchise 6th man.

Maybe a more appropriate question would be between Jones and Webster because I'm thinking that decision might arise this summer if Jones opts-out.

[Wizenheimer]

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I'm not too sure I understand you. Webster is talented, BUT we need 3's and defense from the SF spot. Outlaw offers neither of those. Webster has shown to be a decent and improving 3 point shooter, and is already, I would say, a better man to man defender than Travis is. Outlaw is always called a good defender because he gets some good blocks, but he can't guard the SF position at all.

I voted for Webster, and what I find to be unfair is people seem to want to compare the two as if they are at the same stage in their careers. Webster is in his 3rd year, Outlaw his 5th. Webster has shown way more improvement, IMO, from year 1-3 than Outlaw did in that same time frame. I think he will continue to get better, and will ultimately be a better player than Outlaw is.

FG%.....outlaw .450....webster .412
3pt.......outlaw .440....webster .384
reb......outlaw 5.0.....webster 3.9
ast.......outlaw 1.5....webster 1.4
TO.......webster 1.16.....outlaw 1.27
blk.....outlaw .82.....webster .40
stl......outlaw .76.....webster .53

Webster needs 2 more minutes a game to post numbers slightly inferior to outlaw. He doesn't turn it over quite as much but then outlaw drives with the ball a lot more then martell.

As to their relative defensive abilities, if martell has an edge, it isn't a large one.

And I posted in another thread about martell's and travis's relative development:

Martell came in with a more developed game then Travis did. In other words, when they were at the same stage their rookie years martell had a head start.

Secondly, in his first two seasons, Travis only played in 67 games and averaged 12 min/gm. On the other hand, Martell played in 143 games and averaged 20 min/gm...plus martell had a stint in the NBDL.

Furthermore, martell has averaged 28 minutes in his 3rd year, while travis averaged 16.7.

So martell has had a huge advantage in opportunity to this point in his career compared to the same point in travis's career. So comparing those relative numbers skews the analysis out of context IMO.
Now obviously, you can make a point that martell's advantage in playing time was because of his advantage in development, and that tracking comparitive points in their respective careers is accordingly valid.

But at least it's important to keep the context I outlined in mind.

with that in mind, I'm not sure you can predict who has a higher ceiling.

Right now Travis is a better player, and it could remain that way.

[Mr Odd]

I know its just my opinion and I dont like
to be harsh to my fellow Blazers fans, but
for those of you who voted for Webster
over Outlaw, you need to check your meds.

Im not calling anyone stupid, but I am
saying please, please check your meds.


All joking aside, Outlaw has shown he is
the better player. He can take it to the
hoop, he can hit the outside shot, he can
come up with the big saving block and the
kid is clutch in the 4th. Webster isnt bad,
and im sure he will get a lot better but so
with Outlaw. Its true Webster can hit that
3 and that will become a big part of the O
once Oden is playing, but I think it will be
easier to find another Webster then it is to
find another Travis.. .just my opinion.. .

Now excuse me while I go take my meds.

[Fitz303]

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I'm not too sure I understand you. Webster is talented, BUT we need 3's and defense from the SF spot. Outlaw offers neither of those. Webster has shown to be a decent and improving 3 point shooter, and is already, I would say, a better man to man defender than Travis is. Outlaw is always called a good defender because he gets some good blocks, but he can't guard the SF position at all.

I voted for Webster, and what I find to be unfair is people seem to want to compare the two as if they are at the same stage in their careers. Webster is in his 3rd year, Outlaw his 5th. Webster has shown way more improvement, IMO, from year 1-3 than Outlaw did in that same time frame. I think he will continue to get better, and will ultimately be a better player than Outlaw is.

Well first, Outlaw is a pretty good defender. Not a great defender, but Id say hes good (still needs to Box out). He is actually shooting the 3 pointer better than Webster this year. Outlaw has improved his 3pt shooting incredibly this year and it looks to be consistent. Now, he doesnt shoot it even close to the amount that Webster does, but he can hit it.

Now as far as stages of their games. Outlaw came in as one of the rawest (is that a word?) nba players EVER. He hardly played in his first year due to the fact that we were still a decent team when he first came in. He has shown great improvements and is starting to realize the potential that trader Bob saw in him. Webster came into the league wayyy more NBA ready than Outlaw and got more minutes in his first 3 years.

Outlaws first 3 seasons - 2 MPG, 13 MPG, 16 MPG
Websters first 3 seasons - 17 MPG, 21 MPG, 28 MPG

Outlaw hardly even played in his first season, so its not like you can call that much of a learning period. Webster averaged more minutes in his rookie season than Outlaw did in his 3rd season. The 2 are not even comparable in that sense. I've said it a ton of times, I like Webster a lot but Outlaws potential has always been higher just do to his natural gifts and it looks like hes beginning to realize them. Give Outlaw the starting minutes and I believe he will flourish over time

[cucad8]

Showing he is shooting better at 3s this year doesn't make him a better 3 point shooter, factoring in the amount taken. Starting and playing the majority of your minutes next to Brandon and LMA makes it difficult as well, I would argue, for Webster to put up similar stats to Outlaw. He isn't a go to option when he is on the floor the same way Outlaw is. If their roles were reversed, and Outlaw started, with Webster being the go-to option off the bench, how would their stats look then? Obviously, we don't know, but just taking their stats is a little flawed to me. And I dispute Outlaw being a pretty good defender. Against some PFs, maybe. He can't stay in front of SFs though. He just can't. I dunno what it is. Sure Outlaw was more raw, but they both came out of HS, were both the same age coming in. If Outlaw was that raw, and improved to this, what's to say Webster, who has a better skill set, can't improve by more than what Outlaw has.
Anyways, it's just my opinion, but I think Webster ends up the better pro, and I would regret losing him way more than losing Outlaw.

[Fitz303]

Showing he is shooting better at 3s this year doesn't make him a better 3 point shooter, factoring in the amount taken. Starting and playing the majority of your minutes next to Brandon and LMA makes it difficult as well, I would argue, for Webster to put up similar stats to Outlaw. He isn't a go to option when he is on the floor the same way Outlaw is. If their roles were reversed, and Outlaw started, with Webster being the go-to option off the bench, how would their stats look then? Obviously, we don't know, but just taking their stats is a little flawed to me. And I dispute Outlaw being a pretty good defender. Against some PFs, maybe. He can't stay in front of SFs though. He just can't. I dunno what it is. Sure Outlaw was more raw, but they both came out of HS, were both the same age coming in. If Outlaw was that raw, and improved to this, what's to say Webster, who has a better skill set, can't improve by more than what Outlaw has.
Anyways, it's just my opinion, but I think Webster ends up the better pro, and I would regret losing him way more than losing Outlaw.

Outlaw does most of his damage in the 4th quarter, while hes playing along side Roy and LMA. He tends to do better when hes playing with them. I guess the defensive beliefs is just opinion, but I dont see how you can argue against it. As far as Webster having a better skill set... WHAT??? how do you come up with that? He has better form on his jump shot?? Outlaw actually reminds me a lot like a longer Drexler. Obviously im not saying hes as good as Clyde was, but in his game, he has a lot of similarities. Drexler was definitely a better ball handler but the way they both elevate and got to the rim, and the way they both had not much of an outside shot early on in their careers, but developed a pretty nice shot over time, are pretty similar