The Overrating of Travis Outlaw

[Mr Odd]

Fitz303 -

cucad8 - I wasnt trying to start anything & in no way
was I pointing a finger at you or anyone else & saying
that Travis doesnt have flaws. Sorry if it came accross
that way. I was in a bit of a hurry when I typed that lol.
My hidden message I guess was, with some of the other
players on the Blazers, I just dont understand why people
are getting on Outlaws back a little. Some of the things he
has done I think buys him a out for anything hes not doing
well right now. But thats just my opinion and in no way am
I saying you or anyone else doesnt have the right to point
out his flaws. Im just saying theres a few others players
that have flaws that need to be pointed out before Travis.

But by all means, its your right to point out flaws when you
want. I mean, I rag on Nate and Jack ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!!

Speaking of Jack.. .

mojo - Basketball IQ, start with Jack!!

(But I'll have to come back later to read replys, I gotta go
outside into the cold!! Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!)

[SoHo]

Is this directed at me? When someone says I am praising a player because of a mancrush I don't know how else to interpret that.

Yes, I realize that is how you are interpreting it, and thus I am giving you a new way to interpret it. I don't think you need to take it as a homophobic remark and instead can take it simply as a way of saying you are a little biased.

As far as playing d on that last possession, i agree that it might have been a coaching decision to put Roy on Bron, but clearly Outlaw isn't a good defender if we are playing a 6'6" shooting guard on him at the end of the game instead of Outlaw. I don't buy the "then Roy has to guard Gooden" point, we can put Pryz in and have LMA guard Gooden. There were two other shooters on the floor one of which Roy might have guarded. I am staying with my story, if Outlaw had a good game guarding Bron then he would have been on him that last possession. And "no worse than the other players" is a cop out. Outlaw is not a good man to man defender.

[Walton'sBeard!]

Yes, I realize that is how you are interpreting it, and thus I am giving you a new way to interpret it. I don't think you need to take it as a homophobic remark and instead can take it simply as a way of saying you are a little biased.

Biased? Based on what? Not my mancrush, of course. Perhaps I'm biased based on the ache coming from my wisdom teeth.

As far as playing d on that last possession, i agree that it might have been a coaching decision to put Roy on Bron, but clearly Outlaw isn't a good defender if we are playing a 6'6" shooting guard on him at the end of the game instead of Outlaw. I don't buy the "then Roy has to guard Gooden" point, we can put Pryz in and have LMA guard Gooden. There were two other shooters on the floor one of which Roy might have guarded. I am staying with my story, if Outlaw had a good game guarding Bron then he would have been on him that last possession. And "no worse than the other players" is a cop out. Outlaw is not a good man to man defender.

And I think it's a cop out to base your "Outlaw is a bad defender" argument on the final possession of one game. I think Nate expected a screen on that play and maybe he planned on Roy switching off and a double team coming after the screen. I cannot believe he really planned on Roy guarding Lebron one on one. If he did then he is a much worse coach than I thought. I'll stand by my story too.

[valleyman33]

-= original quote snipped =-



How did this even get started. He is not a lock down defender. I wouldn't even say he is a good man to man defender. Lock down? Gimme a break. Not even close. He can't keep his man in front of him.

Pretty obvious you did not see his defense on Lebron, did a much better job than Brandon...! Yikes do some of you even watch the games?
He might not be a "Lock down defender" yet, but he's not bad!

[cucad8]

"Pretty obvious you did not see his defense on Lebron, did a much better job than Brandon...! Yikes do some of you even watch the games?
He might not be a "Lock down defender" yet, but he's not bad!"

As I stated before, I have seen every game this year, or just about every game, depending on work. I have been to every home game though. I don't see a purpose in furthering this discussion, though, if people fail to read or comprehend what those of us on the trying not to over rate him side are saying. Or, if it is going to go back and forth on opinions(he's an average to good to great to lock down man to man defender) that while can't be proven, seem horribly misguided. I suppose it's wrong to say my opinion is right, or more right, so I'm done with it.

[Wizenheimer]

I agree, although I honestly think that he's not our 3rd best player if you look at all-around game. I think you can make that argument, but I think he's in there about tied with Blake and Joel and Martell in a knot of players that are all very valuable to the team but not in that first tier.

ok...but i don't really agree. I think Travis's game has elevated him above the others. Obviously, Blake and Joel for instance, are expected to do different things so a direct comparison is probably a bit unfair.

Even on offense he has this issue, as he has a tendency to force up his shot when the defense doesn't bite on that jab-step move of his.

frankly, he's improved on that a ton. And that particular sin is one share by just about all his teammates. Martell's been doing it a lot lately.

And I'm still in shock from Joel shooting that 15' jump shot a couple of games ago...

but I will also point out that other than Jones you're comparing Outlaw to players who are nearly his equal but who have much less NBA experience, approximately half of his experience in fact.

I think that is misleading at best. Travis only played in 8 games his 1st year and after 2 seasons he'd only played in 67 games and only averaged 12 minutes. That's not a lot of 'experience'

Career Minutes:

Outlaw.....4716
Webster...4113
Frye.........4235
Jack.........5440
Jones.......5285
Blake.......7306
Roy.........3739

so, by no means does webster only have half the experience as outlaw. Yes, outlaw has has a couple of more training camps, but that's nothing like game experience.

So i don't think that argument is very valid, and considering how raw outlaw was as a rookie, I think it's very hard to guage approximately where his ceiling is.

[Goldbum]

Super Trout is a studd. If

[mojomarc]

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I'm not saying this to be argumentative...but I'm really not sure what is meant by basketball IQ

I mean the example you gave about driving in to double-teams could apply to brandon, blake, sergio, jack, and lately martell. That all do it occasionally, so is it really a question of intelligence?

I can think of the number of times that I've seen Brandon or Blake take an ill-advised shot this season probably with both hands for the two combined. I can count that many for Travis in the average four game homestand.

When LMA continues to 'settle' for jump shots, is that a failure of IQ?

For the most part, LMA takes jump shots when he's open and players sag off him, which is pretty smart. When players play him tightly, he generally makes some sort of move to get an easier opportunity. He rarely seems to force up shots that look difficult, while Travis is constantly doing high degree-of-difficulty plays when he doesn't need to. Be honest--how frequently do you watch him and he takes a shot that looks like a desperation, shot clock running out type of shot, only there are still ten seconds on the clock? How many times do you say "no, Travis! No!" followed immediately by a "Yes!" because he made a really difficult shot? This is almost a constant thing for me, and that's Travis making the game harder than it needs to be, and that's low bbIQ.

or when all the blazers fail to block out on their defensive boards is that bad IQ?

That's usually laziness more than anything

honestly, I don't know what exactly it means or if it's a generic term to be appled to any dumb play

For me, it refers to the ability to make split second decisions at various inflection points during the course of the game and to estimate the percentage of the time that making the decision differently would have resulted in an easier opportunity or a better scoring chance. With Travis, he scores a lot but on probably the majority of his scoring opportunities if he had done something else the team would have been better off all other things being equal.

[Wizenheimer]

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For me, it refers to the ability to make split second decisions at various inflection points during the course of the game and to estimate the percentage of the time that making the decision differently would have resulted in an easier opportunity or a better scoring chance. With Travis, he scores a lot but on probably the majority of his scoring opportunities if he had done something else the team would have been better off all other things being equal.

I ran that sentence around in my mind a few times till it became painful...and then I realized the author probably took a few months off of his life composing it. Don't do that anymore.

[SoHo]

Biased? Based on what? Not my mancrush, of course. Perhaps I'm biased based on the ache coming from my wisdom teeth.

I'm not trying to defend what he said or call you biased... this is why this conversation can't go anywhere. You need to read what I'm writing here! I'm trying to tell you that his remark isn't necessarily homophobic. That's all.

As far as the other part of this conversation. I don't think Outlaw is a bad defender, I just don't think he is a good one either. I don't base that on the final possession of the Cleveland game, I base it on what I've seen this season. I used that possession to point out the fact that I'm not the only one that feels that way. If Brandon is guarding Lebron then clearly Nate, or someone that makes such decisions feels that Brandon could do a better job.

Furthermore if you can't believe Nate would have Brandon play defense on him then you clearly didn't watch the game. Brandon was guarding Lebron and being guarded by lebron for much of the 4th quarter...

as Cucad mentioned this conversation isn't going anywhere because I'm being categorized as a Travis hater. When in fact I love him and think he has done wonders for us this season. I don't think he is as essential to our success as some do, but clearly his improvement this season is a big part of the reason we're where we are in the standings. I give credit where credit is due, but I don't gloss over his failings because he's gotten us out of some pickles in the 4th quarter.

[SoHo]

Travis is constantly doing high degree-of-difficulty plays when he doesn't need to. Be honest--how frequently do you watch him and he takes a shot that looks like a desperation, shot clock running out type of shot, only there are still ten seconds on the clock? How many times do you say "no, Travis! No!" followed immediately by a "Yes!" because he made a really difficult shot? This is almost a constant thing for me, and that's Travis making the game harder than it needs to be, and that's low bbIQ.

This basically sums up my feelings on Travis. Sometimes it's a good thing that he's willing to put up those hard shots and that he can knock them down, but in general he's got to improve this aspect of his game, and that's a pretty hard thing to do.

I don't think it's fair to write him off because of this deficiency, but I think this is what will eventually end up holding him back.

[Mr Odd]

Travis can score two balls at once
but hes not a show off so he doesnt.

[mojomarc]

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I ran that sentence around in my mind a few times till it became painful...and then I realized the author probably took a few months off of his life composing it. Don't do that anymore.

My prose lives forever, Wiz.

[Mr Odd]

Im a idiot, I just now realized that
Wiz in the game chat last game
was probably Wizenheimer.

I R SMERT!!

[swede]

Travis is like E.T. and Nate is that little boy peddling the bike

[Wizenheimer]

Im a idiot, I just now realized that
Wiz in the game chat last game
was probably Wizenheimer.

I R SMERT!!

yep...dropped by at halftime. My computer and my tv are in different rooms so I can't chat and watch. I couldn't anyway because I have to look at the keyboard when I type...would miss the game while I was being a smartass

[Mr Odd]

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yep...dropped by at halftime. My computer and my tv are in different rooms so I can't chat and watch. I couldn't anyway because I have to look at the keyboard when I type...would miss the game while I was being a smartass

I got a TV in the same room as
my computer but its behind me,
so I set up a mirror so I can see
the TV behind me, haha.. .But I
ususally go by the TV when the
game is getting good.. .

[Walton'sBeard!]

I'm not trying to defend what he said or call you biased... this is why this conversation can't go anywhere. You need to read what I'm writing here! I'm trying to tell you that his remark isn't necessarily homophobic. That's all.

Ah SoHo SoHo SoHo, we were misunderstanding eachother. You thought I was implying homophobia when in fact I was going for simple immaturity. Does anyone over the age of 12 try to make a point by calling another person gay? Salem does.

As far as the other part of this conversation. I don't think Outlaw is a bad defender, I just don't think he is a good one either.

That's all I have been trying to say the entire time.

as Cucad mentioned this conversation isn't going anywhere because I'm being categorized as a Travis hater. When in fact I love him and think he has done wonders for us this season. I don't think he is as essential to our success as some do, but clearly his improvement this season is a big part of the reason we're where we are in the standings. I give credit where credit is due, but I don't gloss over his failings because he's gotten us out of some pickles in the 4th quarter.

I'm not sure, but I think the only time "hate" was used in this thread was by me directed toward SalemStoner when he posted that Travis was a terrible defender and worthless on offense and I asked why he seemed to hate Travis. That was when cucad flew off the handle screaming "Ah!! You're calling us haters!!! AHZZ!!" I have no reason to think you or anyone else in this conversation are Travis haters.

[SalemStoner]

as Cucad mentioned this conversation isn't going anywhere because I'm being categorized as a Travis hater. When in fact I love him and think he has done wonders for us this season. I don't think he is as essential to our success as some do, but clearly his improvement this season is a big part of the reason we're where we are in the standings. I give credit where credit is due, but I don't gloss over his failings because he's gotten us out of some pickles in the 4th quarter.

This quote pretty much sums up where I was coming from initially, thank you. =)

[LaMark]

I think most of us Blazer fans do not overvalue Travis, but are commenting based on the NJ, Dallas & Blazers trade proposal...

I am not convinced with having Devin Harris as our future PG (contract), therefore my view on keeping Travis is high...

However if i were to trade Travis and a couple of pieces like Jarret, i would go after someone who is just as athletic - say like a Marvin Williams.

But you just gotta love Travis and is how country he is.. lets hope he stays around for the length of his contract and maintains his stats next year, before KP makes his final evaluation on who belongs to our Dynasty.