WC AS snubees

[candy for lunch]

If Vince Carter put up those stats and led his team to wins 60% of the time--like Baron does--then he'd be on the AS team.

You see the major flaws in your argument, right?

wait so you're telling me there's more to an all-star selection than stats???

[ss-wiish!]

his defense is better than kamans. Kaman is a horrible defender. He can block shots and thats it.

You haven't even seen bosh play if you think its because of the system. Take it to the player comparison board and see what you get.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=757198

pwned

[St.Nick]

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wait so you're telling me there's more to an all-star selection than stats???

Yeah, stats and team success are huge factors towards AS selection. That's why so many people are shocked about Baron being snubbed. He put up better stats and his team was more successful than Roy's.

You get it now? Or do you have any more questions I can help clarify for you?

[BROWN]

[quote="tsherkin"][/quote]

that's not what i was trying to point out, who's the better player, everyone knows it's Tim Duncan, but the thing I was trying to say was that
both the Spurs (29-16) and Warriors (29-19) have fairly similar records but, the spurs received an All star but the warriors didn't, and if it where the other way around, if Tim Dunca/Tony Parker/Manu didn't make it and Baron or Jax made it, you would be hear complaining to.
OUt of the top west Teams, GSW was the only team not to have an all star.
and that's whats frustrating me.

I couldn't care less about Tim Duncan, I was just telling you your teams star player.

[Charlie78]

St. Nick turn on your sarcasm detector because thats his point about Roy. There is more than stats as to why Roy got in, is roy as good as baron based on the stats your using no. But stats can say whatever you want, Brandon is a better rebounder, he also has a better fg% and efg%. The biggest knock though on baron is the fact that he takes nights off. Until baron shows that he comes to play every night I dont think he will ever be a allstar. Its a funny thing about most coaches they value effort over anything else. Thats why guys like Turiaf and Bowen have places in this league. A guy with barons talent should be murdering people night in night out but he is content to take time off, kind of like a shorter version of Rasheed. Dont hate Roy because the coaches can see the difference.

[BlzrsExplosion]

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Yeah, stats and team success are huge factors towards AS selection. That's why so many people are shocked about Baron being snubbed. He put up better stats and his team was more successful than Roy's.

You get it now? Or do you have any more questions I can help clarify for you?

It's HIGHLY debatable that Davis's team is more successful than Roy's. The Blazers were projected to finish between 11th and 14th in the Western Conference by most experts. The Warriors were projected to finish between 6th and 9th. As the season currently stands the Blazers are 1 game behind the Warriors, have played 2 less games and when the coaches actually voted I'm not so sure the Blazers were even behind the Warriors in the standings.

Other stats the coaches might consider...
Davis has 6 technical fouls Roy has 0. Roy won back to back player of the week awards in the midst of an NBA season high 13 game winning streak. When asked about the awards Roy said he thought they were actually "team awards" and took his whole team out for dinner to celebrate their hard work. If you don't think coaches are going to take attitude into consideration when selecting who they think is deserving of their personal all star vote....you're crazy....

[The_Believer]

Are you Western conference fans watching the NBA through a different lens than the rest of us? Your snubs couldn't hold a candle to the Eastern all-stars. The Eastern starters are easily just as good as the Western starters this year, and the team as a whole would crush the western snubs.

PG Kidd / Billups / Johnson
SG Wade / Pierce / Hamilton
SF LeBron / Butler
PF Garnett / Jamison
Cc Howard / Bosh

I'll go so far as to say that the East will beat the West in this years all star game.

Baron>>> Joe Johnson, Baron>Chauncey, and Kidd is just awful this year. The East guards are mostly just terrible this year. However, the East frontline would cruch the West.

[St.Nick]

St. Nick turn on your sarcasm detector because thats his point about Roy. There is more than stats as to why Roy got in, is roy as good as baron based on the stats your using no. But stats can say whatever you want, Brandon is a better rebounder, he also has a better fg% and efg%. The biggest knock though on baron is the fact that he takes nights off. Until baron shows that he comes to play every night I dont think he will ever be a allstar. Its a funny thing about most coaches they value effort over anything else. Thats why guys like Turiaf and Bowen have places in this league. A guy with barons talent should be murdering people night in night out but he is content to take time off, kind of like a shorter version of Rasheed. Dont hate Roy because the coaches can see the difference.

He was being sarcastic....?!!?! REEEEEALLY?

"Stats say whatever we want them to"...ok...

So I guess that pretty much illegitimizes the use of stats from this point on. So even though one guy is averaging more points than another guy, can we really consider him a better scorer? And if he averages more assists, is he really a better passer? Nobody knows, because ppg and apg do not indicate anything but are only used as a tool by homer fans looking to win an argument.

Is this what you mean by the fact that stats can say whatever we want them to?



And wtf are you talking about with Baron taking nights off...? Show me the nights that Baron took off. And then explain to me how the belief that he has more talent than is being utilized should effect whether he is considered one of the top 12 players in his conference.
If someone says that LeBron doesn't work on his jumper enough, does that mean he should not be allowed in the AS game?...Or that Kobe should be a better passer, therefore he should not be allowed?

Stop trying to justify what was a coaches snub over the fact that Baron tried to force out Byron Scott several years ago. It has nothing to do with him as a player nor does it have anything to do with whether he or Brandon Roy is superior (its obviously Davis at this point).

You can accept this fact, can't you? It doesn't mean that Roy isn't having a great year, it just means that he's not having as great a year as Baron Davis.

[St.Nick]

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It's HIGHLY debatable that Davis's team is more successful than Roy's. The Blazers were projected to finish between 11th and 14th in the Western Conference by most experts. The Warriors were projected to finish between 6th and 9th. As the season currently stands the Blazers are 1 game behind the Warriors, have played 2 less games and when the coaches actually voted I'm not so sure the Blazers were even behind the Warriors in the standings.

Other stats the coaches might consider...
Davis has 6 technical fouls Roy has 0. Roy won back to back player of the week awards in the midst of an NBA season high 13 game winning streak. When asked about the awards Roy said he thought they were actually "team awards" and took his whole team out for dinner to celebrate their hard work. If you don't think coaches are going to take attitude into consideration when selecting who they think is deserving of their personal all star vote....you're crazy....

The first part about Roy deserving to be an AS for the Blazers exceeding preseason expectations is just stupid. The AS game is an exhibition of the 12 best players in each conference, its not about the feel good underdog story of the year.

The second part may have some credence in WHY Roy was picked, but we're discussing whether one player is more deserving or not based on their performance, not based on their shining personality (btw, Baron is hardly Keon Clark or JR Smith. He plays with courage, intensity, maturity, and skill. As a result he's got an entire team following him and is guiding them towards a near 50 win season). Again, I'm not saying that what you are talking about does not play into the selection process, but do fans want to see the more PC guy in the game or the more talented, exciting, and deserving player in there?

If you want the answer, I think you can find it in the reaction of fans throughout this thread.

[tsherkin]

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that's not what i was trying to point out, who's the better player, everyone knows it's Tim Duncan, but the thing I was trying to say was that
both the Spurs (29-16) and Warriors (29-19) have fairly similar records but, the spurs received an All star but the warriors didn't, and if it where the other way around, if Tim Dunca/Tony Parker/Manu didn't make it and Baron or Jax made it, you would be hear complaining to.
OUt of the top west Teams, GSW was the only team not to have an all star.
and that's whats frustrating me.

I couldn't care less about Tim Duncan, I was just telling you your teams star player.

I understand that, but it was a very poor example and I called you on it because of the way you posted that particular comment.

If you wanted to make a more legitimate comment, you might have used Chris Bosh, Carlos Boozer or someone who hasn't dominated the league thoroughly enough to be considered an automatic All-Star irrespective of votes.

Still though, perhaps the best way to characterize my response is this:

Your final comment in that post was:

OUt of the top west Teams, GSW was the only team not to have an all star.

The point that should be made here is that Golden State is NOT one of the "top West teams," they're just another bubble playoff team right now, just as they were last year. That their record is similar to San Antonio's means very little, they are the 8th seed and consequently they are tied (with Denver) for the last among the non-lottery teams, which is pretty much definitively not a "top team" this year.

[pr0nny]

Warriors fans should consider this: Baron Davis IS an All-Star. He's been to the game before and he's still playing at an All-Star level. He just hasn't been to the game recently.

[Charlie78]

He was being sarcastic....?!!?! REEEEEALLY?

"Stats say whatever we want them to"...ok...

So I guess that pretty much illegitimizes the use of stats from this point on. So even though one guy is averaging more points than another guy, can we really consider him a better scorer? And if he averages more assists, is he really a better passer? Nobody knows, because ppg and apg do not indicate anything but are only used as a tool by homer fans looking to win an argument.

Is this what you mean by the fact that stats can say whatever we want them to?

What I mean is not that stats are meaningless and shouldnt be taken into account but that they do not tell the whole story. For example look at these two players.

Zach Randolph 2006/07: 23.6 ppg 10.4 rpg 2.2 apg 46.7%fg
Mehmet Okur 2006/07: 17.6 ppg 7.2 rpg 2.0 apg 46.2%fg

Yet okur was an allstar and zach was not. Even though his stats clearly outshine memo's. Admittedley the difference in records was alot more pronounced, but so is the stat difference between the two. So were you crying out that zach got snubbed last year and wailing on and on about how much of a travesty it was. Because its about the 12 best players right. The fact is that you have to take more into account than how many points a guy gets to see whos better. Stats are a great tool but they are not the whole game.

And wtf are you talking about with Baron taking nights off...? Show me the nights that Baron took off.

In portland I was there he essentially laid a giant egg decided to quit and got yanked. Instead of fighting and trying to take it to the blazers he lazily threw up ill advised shots until nelly had no choice but to sit him. Despite it being an important game for him to prove his skills aginst his main competition.

And then explain to me how the belief that he has more talent than is being utilized should effect whether he is considered one of the top 12 players in his conference.

Because he would be a top 12 player if he utilized his talent but because he doesnt hes not. If Good baron played every night he would have easily been an allstar because GS would probably be leading the west or close to it. But the games that he takes off have killed you guys all season.

If someone says that LeBron doesn't work on his jumper enough, does that mean he should not be allowed in the AS game?...Or that Kobe should be a better passer, therefore he should not be allowed?

Kobe and Lebron give you the same effort night in night out not the same for baron and thats why hes not considered with those two even though he has that kind of ability. That was my point. Baron has the talent to be a top 4 or 5 player in the whole league but hes struggling to stay in the top 20 so is that his fault or the people who see it. Im not saying barons not a great player Im just saying he doesnt always bring that and frankly you guys know it. I always hear you guys talking about good baron vs bad baron.

p trying to justify what was a coaches snub over the fact that Baron tried to force out Byron Scott several years ago. It has nothing to do with him as a player nor does it have anything to do with whether he or Brandon Roy is superior (its obviously Davis at this point).

First I prefer to think of it as a comment on how amazing Roy has been as a leader rather than people disliking baron. Clearly baron puts up better numbers. But I would argue that brandon is the better player and will show it in the years to come.

accept this fact, can't you? It doesn't mean that Roy isn't having a great year, it just means that he's not having as great a year as Baron Davis[/uote]

We will have to agree to disagree Roy in my opinion is having the better year. More consistant, more efficient scoring and better leadership. Clearly some people who know a little about basketball agree with me.

[BlzrsExplosion]

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The first part about Roy deserving to be an AS for the Blazers exceeding preseason expectations is just stupid. The AS game is an exhibition of the 12 best players in each conference, its not about the feel good underdog story of the year.

The second part may have some credence in WHY Roy was picked, but we're discussing whether one player is more deserving or not based on their performance, not based on their shining personality (btw, Baron is hardly Keon Clark or JR Smith. He plays with courage, intensity, maturity, and skill. As a result he's got an entire team following him and is guiding them towards a near 50 win season). Again, I'm not saying that what you are talking about does not play into the selection process, but do fans want to see the more PC guy in the game or the more talented, exciting, and deserving player in there?

If you want the answer, I think you can find it in the reaction of fans throughout this thread.

YOU said Davis deserved it because the Warriors team was more successful. I pointed out that the Blazers season is probably more of a success. It's debatable because as it currently stands the Warriors are a whopping game ahead of them in the standings (though again I'm not so sure this was the case when the coaches voted). Factoring in the outlook at the beginning of the season I'd say the Blazers are having a more successful season so far. Sorry for stupidly commenting on a point YOU made....

It's well known that the fans have their shot to vote in the starters that they think are most talented, exciting and deserving. Alas Baron Davis did not garner enough votes. The coaches select the reserves. It's obviously not a personality contest but I don't think it's completely off base for the coaches to take into account the fact that Baron Davis is prone to meltdowns that hinder his team. He's like a miniature Rasheed Wallace out there sometimes. Opinions are like belly buttons....everyone has one....the fans had their say...the coaches had their say...and that's that. All the bellyaching in the world won't get Baron Davis on the All Star team just like it won't get a made call reversed to go Baron's way in an NBA game...

Still you cry "Why? why? why? why did Baron Davis get snubbed?" We give you some reasons....you cry "That's dumb! Why? why? why did Baron Davis get snubbed?" We give you some reasons and you exclaim, "He still got snubbed! I don't care!" But apparently the coaches did.

[St.Nick]

I'm not saying "why?" I'm refuting what I consider to be illogical opinions about why a guy putting up less production on a less winning team deserves to be in the AS game.

To be completely honest, I'm happy that Baron was snubbed bc I'm certain that it will give him extra motivation in the games that count.

But its still silly to say that Roy is:

A) A better player
B) Having a better season than Baron

And if Baron was a "quitter"or a "mini Rasheed Wallace" then why is it that he is so well respected as a captain of this team? How did he lead his team to the biggest 1st rd upset in NBA history last year? Are these players on the Warriors stupid or could they know a lot more than you guys do in regards to the true character of Baron Davis?

[candy for lunch]

He was being sarcastic....?!!?! REEEEEALLY?

"Stats say whatever we want them to"...ok...

So I guess that pretty much illegitimizes the use of stats from this point on. So even though one guy is averaging more points than another guy, can we really consider him a better scorer? And if he averages more assists, is he really a better passer? Nobody knows, because ppg and apg do not indicate anything but are only used as a tool by homer fans looking to win an argument.

Is this what you mean by the fact that stats can say whatever we want them to?

Do you understand why I made my comment about Vince Carter?

[The_Believer]

Kobe and AI get into legal trouble all the time, and were even bigger headcases, yet people still love them. So why the double standard towards Baron?

[St.Nick]

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Do you understand why I made my comment about Vince Carter?

Why don't you explain it to me? And please, only monosyllabic words.

[crzy]

Zach Randolph 2006/07: 23.6 ppg 10.4 rpg 2.2 apg 46.7%fg
Mehmet Okur 2006/07: 17.6 ppg 7.2 rpg 2.0 apg 46.2%fg

Yet okur was an allstar and zach was not. Even though his stats clearly outshine memo's. Admittedley the difference in records was alot more pronounced, but so is the stat difference between the two. So were you crying out that zach got snubbed last year and wailing on and on about

Baron Davis' team has a better record than Brandon Roy's team. So bringing up Randolph vs Okur is a terrible argument.

Baron Davis has better stats AND the more successful team.

[candy for lunch]

Why don't you explain it to me? And please, only monosyllabic words.

Because VC and Roy have very, very similar statistics, yet one is in the all-star game while one isn't. Heck VC is putting up better numbers and is a better player than Hamilton, who managed to somehow cheat himself into the all-star game.

If you refuse to understand that coaches are smart enough to realize numbers aren't everything and that Roy:

*has lead his team to a number of wins which nearly everyone was predicting would be around their season total after trading away their franchise 20/10 player
*doesn't shoot his team out of games
*always makes smart decisions
*essentially doesn't have any weaknesses in his game

does all these things, which can't necessarily be quantified by 'SEE LOOK AT HIS SEASON STATS', just might warrant inclusion as a reserve over Davis, then I don't really know what to tell you.

Also this whole 'leading his team to a better record' argument is completely worthless when GS had a staggering 1 game lead over the Blazers when all star voting was finished. I mean, for God's sake you guys are making it sound like GS has 5+ games over them.

[AKBlazerFan]

I might argue that even though GS has a slightly better record, what Portland is doing with what they have (very young roster), makes them a more successful team this season.