http://blogs.charlotte.com/inside_the_n ... -to-r.html
Sam get it together and lets get this thing rolling....
Ray back at point.....
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Ray back at point.....
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DaBassSource
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e4Nf6
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Probably a point that someone else has made already but here goes...
Lets try a little blind taste test
Three players in their first three years, all Point guards:
Player 1
___year1_ year2_ year3
MPG 27.7__ 33.1__ 23.5
PPG 11.2__ 13.9__ 8.6
FG% .374__ /.386__ .337
AST 3.9__ 3.8__ 3.0
TO 2.1__ 2.2__ 1.9
Player 2
___year1__ year2__ year3
MPG 10.5__ 21.9__ 31.7
PPG 3.3__ 9.1__ 7.9
FG% .423__ .459__ .363
AST 2.1__ 3.4__ 5.5
TO 0.97__ 1.29__ 2.08
Player 3
___year1__ year2__ year3
MPG 30.1__ 36.3__ 37.3
PPG 11.9__ 14.0__ 13.5
FG% .391__ .384__ .414
AST 5.6__ 7.0__ 7.1
TO 2.28__ 2.95__ 2.76
If you were the GM of an NBA team and had to decide between the three which would you choose? (I hope the Formating works out on the tables)
Lets try a little blind taste test
Three players in their first three years, all Point guards:
Player 1
___year1_ year2_ year3
MPG 27.7__ 33.1__ 23.5
PPG 11.2__ 13.9__ 8.6
FG% .374__ /.386__ .337
AST 3.9__ 3.8__ 3.0
TO 2.1__ 2.2__ 1.9
Player 2
___year1__ year2__ year3
MPG 10.5__ 21.9__ 31.7
PPG 3.3__ 9.1__ 7.9
FG% .423__ .459__ .363
AST 2.1__ 3.4__ 5.5
TO 0.97__ 1.29__ 2.08
Player 3
___year1__ year2__ year3
MPG 30.1__ 36.3__ 37.3
PPG 11.9__ 14.0__ 13.5
FG% .391__ .384__ .414
AST 5.6__ 7.0__ 7.1
TO 2.28__ 2.95__ 2.76
If you were the GM of an NBA team and had to decide between the three which would you choose? (I hope the Formating works out on the tables)
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fluffernutter
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Yes, it's pretty easy to overreact when it comes to point guards. Some of them are ready at day 1. Some take 5 years. Some of the best take 5 years. Some of the best take 1 day. Some of the worst get 5 years and never progress. Some of the potentially best probably get one year and never get another shot. The variability boggles the mind.
For what it is worth, I see slight progress this year in the following,RE Felton. He drives and kicks out to shooters more. He sometimes gets pretty far in and kicks out even. Once he gets into the paint he no longer has tunnel vision (only on the goal).
One thing I'd like to see more often is a drive that results in not a circus layup, rather running through the paint and back out to the sides a la Nash. If the shot is not there, don't take it, run back out.
Also, Paul does this awesome thing where he burns his man, floats over to the foul line, and slows down -- if he is not guarded closely he's got a nice relatively easy 2 to shoot. If he's guarded, he can slowly back it out again or bounce it to somebody inside/cutting/corners.
Both Nash and particularly Paul have the fast/slow thing going, and it really works for them. Felton needs to figure out how to go slow; how to burn your man, then immediately slow it down and see what the situation is.
If Felton is really going to play #1 PG minutes, we should know a little more by the end of the year. Then again, we have a coach who has managed to make Okafor look like garbage for long stretches. So it's tough to judge individual performances. But we can try.
For what it is worth, I see slight progress this year in the following,RE Felton. He drives and kicks out to shooters more. He sometimes gets pretty far in and kicks out even. Once he gets into the paint he no longer has tunnel vision (only on the goal).
One thing I'd like to see more often is a drive that results in not a circus layup, rather running through the paint and back out to the sides a la Nash. If the shot is not there, don't take it, run back out.
Also, Paul does this awesome thing where he burns his man, floats over to the foul line, and slows down -- if he is not guarded closely he's got a nice relatively easy 2 to shoot. If he's guarded, he can slowly back it out again or bounce it to somebody inside/cutting/corners.
Both Nash and particularly Paul have the fast/slow thing going, and it really works for them. Felton needs to figure out how to go slow; how to burn your man, then immediately slow it down and see what the situation is.
If Felton is really going to play #1 PG minutes, we should know a little more by the end of the year. Then again, we have a coach who has managed to make Okafor look like garbage for long stretches. So it's tough to judge individual performances. But we can try.
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DaBassSource
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It may have been the injury...but Felton played a great paced game the 1st half of last nights game...I really liked that he would get deep and shoot the freethrow line shot...He is a real good shooter from that distance...and can get it there anytime...kind of wonder why he doesn't do it more...It would also give him good viewing lanes for passes..
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Paydro70
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There's no doubt that Ray still has potential to improve greatly, and unlike many players, he's at least shown the ability to play in the NBA, so we'll get a definite answer... someday. Personally I still think he can put it together... it's not like he's the kind of guy who doesn't get assists, and he's got the physical tools. The biggest issue is that he's uneven at shooting/finishing himself, but still takes a lot of shots. Some of that is team, some of that is surely coaching, but some of it is on Ray to put it together himself.
Quick rundown, just for fun. I went down the list of top PER PGs until 17, then added in some guys from the past (Cassell, Kidd, etc.). Just food for thought.
1st year breakouts: Chris Paul, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Jason Kidd (maybe 2nd)
2nd year breakouts: Deron Williams, Tony Parker, Andre Miller, Gilbert Arenas, Jordan Farmar (stretch to call it "breakout" perhaps?)
3rd year breakouts: Baron Davis, TJ Ford
4th year breakouts: Devin Harris, John Stockton
5th year breakouts: Steve Nash, Sam Cassell, Gary Payton
7th year breakouts: Chauncey Billups
Quick rundown, just for fun. I went down the list of top PER PGs until 17, then added in some guys from the past (Cassell, Kidd, etc.). Just food for thought.
1st year breakouts: Chris Paul, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Jason Kidd (maybe 2nd)
2nd year breakouts: Deron Williams, Tony Parker, Andre Miller, Gilbert Arenas, Jordan Farmar (stretch to call it "breakout" perhaps?)
3rd year breakouts: Baron Davis, TJ Ford
4th year breakouts: Devin Harris, John Stockton
5th year breakouts: Steve Nash, Sam Cassell, Gary Payton
7th year breakouts: Chauncey Billups
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will
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W_HAMILTON
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Ooh, blind taste tests, I love em! Lemme play!
Player 1, per 48:
16.4 ppg on 14.5 shots
42% FG
15% 3pt
85% FT
4.2 rpg
3.2 spg
0.2 bpg
14.6 apg
4:1 assist:turnover ratio
Player 2, per 48:
17.9 ppg on 14.6 shots
45% FG
37% 3pt
79% FT
5.0 rpg
2.4 spg
0.4 bpg
9.4 apg
3.6:1 assist:turnover ratio
Player 3, per 48:
17.4 ppg on 14.9 shots
41% FG
28% 3pt
79% FT
3.5 rpg
1.5 spg
0.1 bpg
9.1 apg
2.6:1 assist:turnover ratio
Here's your choices, match em up!
(1) A journeyman PG that was signed as an afterthought, playing alongside expansion scrubs.
(2) A 2nd round draft in his 4th season, playing alongside expansion scrubs, who has apparently since turned into a scrub himself since leaving the friendly confines of Charlotte.
(3) A highly-touted, highly-hyped, collegiate national champion, drafted with a high lottery pick, playing alongside much more talent players, including one of the few 20ppg duo's in the league.
Good luck!
Player 1, per 48:
16.4 ppg on 14.5 shots
42% FG
15% 3pt
85% FT
4.2 rpg
3.2 spg
0.2 bpg
14.6 apg
4:1 assist:turnover ratio
Player 2, per 48:
17.9 ppg on 14.6 shots
45% FG
37% 3pt
79% FT
5.0 rpg
2.4 spg
0.4 bpg
9.4 apg
3.6:1 assist:turnover ratio
Player 3, per 48:
17.4 ppg on 14.9 shots
41% FG
28% 3pt
79% FT
3.5 rpg
1.5 spg
0.1 bpg
9.1 apg
2.6:1 assist:turnover ratio
Here's your choices, match em up!
(1) A journeyman PG that was signed as an afterthought, playing alongside expansion scrubs.
(2) A 2nd round draft in his 4th season, playing alongside expansion scrubs, who has apparently since turned into a scrub himself since leaving the friendly confines of Charlotte.
(3) A highly-touted, highly-hyped, collegiate national champion, drafted with a high lottery pick, playing alongside much more talent players, including one of the few 20ppg duo's in the league.
Good luck!
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W_HAMILTON
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PS - Apparently if you gave Jason Hart better team mates and had him shoot worse, he'd be Raymond Felton.
But hey, I actually kinda liked Hart.
Maybe if we bump Felton down to 25 minutes and get a better PG to start ahead of him, I'd like Felton, too. EDIT: now that I think about it, probably not. Not unless you take away the whiney pro-Felton guys that would of course be criticizing said starting PG everytime he didn't put up Paul-like numbers.
But hey, I actually kinda liked Hart.
Maybe if we bump Felton down to 25 minutes and get a better PG to start ahead of him, I'd like Felton, too. EDIT: now that I think about it, probably not. Not unless you take away the whiney pro-Felton guys that would of course be criticizing said starting PG everytime he didn't put up Paul-like numbers.
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W_HAMILTON
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PPS - of those guys you listed, not many -- if any -- before they "broke out" had started 86% of their games played, while averaging almost 35mpg.
Considering that the "break outs" of quite a few of the players you listed coincided with them moving into the starting lineup, or getting starter-like (30mpg+) minutes -- read: opportunity -- I would say that's an important point to remember.
Considering that the "break outs" of quite a few of the players you listed coincided with them moving into the starting lineup, or getting starter-like (30mpg+) minutes -- read: opportunity -- I would say that's an important point to remember.
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fluffernutter
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The two famous examples didn't start because they were certifiable worse in almost every way than Felton was for their first 3 years. How and why would they start?
Listen, I'm not saying that odds are great that Felton improves noticeably.
But history teaches us that WORSE players than Felton - at this point in their careers - have made dramatic leaps and become great point guards.
It might never happen. It might happen. The question is how long do we wait. I'm willing to go another year.
If you are not, fine. But for God's sake stop acting like I have no rational, justifiable, historical reason to hope for the best. You don't have to be a flaming fan-boy to support Felton (with reservations).
Listen, I'm not saying that odds are great that Felton improves noticeably.
But history teaches us that WORSE players than Felton - at this point in their careers - have made dramatic leaps and become great point guards.
It might never happen. It might happen. The question is how long do we wait. I'm willing to go another year.
If you are not, fine. But for God's sake stop acting like I have no rational, justifiable, historical reason to hope for the best. You don't have to be a flaming fan-boy to support Felton (with reservations).
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W_HAMILTON
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You can hope all you want. Stick with that hope thing. Maybe that will prevent you from saying how great he is now, or blaming everyone else when he disappoints.
Accept him for what he is, don't overhype him, don't needlessly trash other players to make excuses for him, and he wouldn't be such a "topic starter" on this board, or every other Charlotte Bobcats board.
Accept him for what he is, don't overhype him, don't needlessly trash other players to make excuses for him, and he wouldn't be such a "topic starter" on this board, or every other Charlotte Bobcats board.
Howard Mass wrote:You do not have the right to not be offended. Just because something is offensive to you does not mean that it breaks the board rules.
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Paydro70
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Fluffer's right Hamilton, what sense does it make to say that the other players played less? Of course they played less, they weren't drafted onto expansion teams. We forced Ray into the starting lineup, playing shooting guard, from his rookie season on. He started a lot of games, and played a lot of minutes, in a very unfavorable situation.
Sure, blind taste tests are fun, and it's cool that worse PGs than Felton have had better years than Felton, even on worse teams. Awesome. Guess what, we can't get time machine Hart or Brevin back here, so we have Felton, and then theoretical draft pick who may or may not be better.
You're not specific with this, so forgive me if I'm not who you're referring to, but I don't feel like I "trash" other players to make "excuses" for Ray. He's a below-average PG, who I think still has great potential. I think Fluffer is right, the question is how quickly and how aggressively we pursue a backup. I don't feel we have to be very aggressive, because Ray is an okay player who is young and may improve.
Sure, blind taste tests are fun, and it's cool that worse PGs than Felton have had better years than Felton, even on worse teams. Awesome. Guess what, we can't get time machine Hart or Brevin back here, so we have Felton, and then theoretical draft pick who may or may not be better.
You're not specific with this, so forgive me if I'm not who you're referring to, but I don't feel like I "trash" other players to make "excuses" for Ray. He's a below-average PG, who I think still has great potential. I think Fluffer is right, the question is how quickly and how aggressively we pursue a backup. I don't feel we have to be very aggressive, because Ray is an okay player who is young and may improve.
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floppymoose
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W_HAMILTON
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It makes a helluva lot of difference.
A lot of those guys "broke out" when they got their minutes and opportunities. If some of those guys go to start 86% of their games their first few years in the league, or got to average around 35mpg their first few years in the league, maybe they wouldn't have taken so long to "break out" to begin with.
Felton has had his minutes and opportunities. Everyone is complaining about his role with this team now, well, imagine if he was still averaging about 24-27mpg and never starting a game? You think he would be further along in his development?
So, yes, it makes a helluva of a difference. He's been given plenty of starts, plenty of minutes, and plenty of opportunities to seize control of our starting PG position. The same can't be said for a lot of those players pre "break out."
And I wasn't talking to you specifically, I'm talking in general.
A lot of those guys "broke out" when they got their minutes and opportunities. If some of those guys go to start 86% of their games their first few years in the league, or got to average around 35mpg their first few years in the league, maybe they wouldn't have taken so long to "break out" to begin with.
Felton has had his minutes and opportunities. Everyone is complaining about his role with this team now, well, imagine if he was still averaging about 24-27mpg and never starting a game? You think he would be further along in his development?
So, yes, it makes a helluva of a difference. He's been given plenty of starts, plenty of minutes, and plenty of opportunities to seize control of our starting PG position. The same can't be said for a lot of those players pre "break out."
And I wasn't talking to you specifically, I'm talking in general.
Howard Mass wrote:You do not have the right to not be offended. Just because something is offensive to you does not mean that it breaks the board rules.
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e4Nf6
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W_HAMILTON wrote:PPS - of those guys you listed, not many -- if any -- before they "broke out" had started 86% of their games played, while averaging almost 35mpg.
Considering that the "break outs" of quite a few of the players you listed coincided with them moving into the starting lineup, or getting starter-like (30mpg+) minutes -- read: opportunity -- I would say that's an important point to remember.
you may have a point with Nash who was initially stuck behind Kevin Johnson, Jason Kidd and Sam Cassell but even when he was given his "chance" in his third year with Dallas (98-99) and started every game he played in he was far from overwhelming
31.7mpg
7.9ppg
.363fg%
5.5apg
2.08TOpg
and the year after that he wasn't even a full time starter, sharing that duty with Robert Pack.
As for Billups, he was the third pick in the draft and was given all the chances in the world. He was so bad that Boston gave up on him before his rookie season was done, and traded him to Toronto. But for his first three seasons he started the overwhelming majority of his games and played around 30mpg.
I certainly wouldn't make the point that Felton is a great PG right now, but he certainly is better than those two at the same time in their career.
Maybe Felton will never get any better but right now I think he is an average NBA pg, with the potential to get ALOT better.
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W_HAMILTON
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If all those guys were given "all the chances in the world," then I guess Felton has been given all the chances in the universe, since so far in his young career, he's started a greater percentage of his games and has averaged more minutes then those guys had.
PS - since I'm so nostalgic about Jason Hart today. Why did we get rid of him? From your stats, Jason Hart was posting comparable or better stats than THE STEVE NASH, back when Hart was with us. And he was only in his 4th season. Why did we give up on him, and why did so many people around here not like him? He could be the next Nash, for freaking sakes! He could be the next Billups! Seeing as how his per48 numbers pretty much trounced Felton's across the board, and seeing as how you all say Felton's numbers are much better than those guys that got off to slow starts...imagine what Hart's numbers would do to them!
This is Hart's 7th season in the league....watch out NBA!
PS - since I'm so nostalgic about Jason Hart today. Why did we get rid of him? From your stats, Jason Hart was posting comparable or better stats than THE STEVE NASH, back when Hart was with us. And he was only in his 4th season. Why did we give up on him, and why did so many people around here not like him? He could be the next Nash, for freaking sakes! He could be the next Billups! Seeing as how his per48 numbers pretty much trounced Felton's across the board, and seeing as how you all say Felton's numbers are much better than those guys that got off to slow starts...imagine what Hart's numbers would do to them!
This is Hart's 7th season in the league....watch out NBA!
Howard Mass wrote:You do not have the right to not be offended. Just because something is offensive to you does not mean that it breaks the board rules.
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Paydro70
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Or, Hamilton, they have their confidence broken by their poor play, develop bad habits by being forced to carry an inferior team, and have their growth stunted, so they never peak, or peak at the same time.
Many of the "Breakouts" we're talking about happened once players transferred teams to get into a better situation for them. I would prefer to see us work to Ray's strengths, since we're losing anyway, then dismiss him as a failure because he doesn't do the halfcourt so great as a part-time PG in his 3rd season.
It's not especially likely that Felton develops into a sure-fire HOFer like Nash, but it's not out of the question, and so that brings us back to the original question.... how aggressively do we pursue a new PG? It's obviously time to start thinking about it, since 11 of the 17 players on my list broke out by their 3rd year. But it's not over, and I don't understand thinking that it would be "magic" for him to become really good in the future.
It's no more unlikely than Gerald Wallace developing into a star, and a hell of a lot more likely than many PGs.
Many of the "Breakouts" we're talking about happened once players transferred teams to get into a better situation for them. I would prefer to see us work to Ray's strengths, since we're losing anyway, then dismiss him as a failure because he doesn't do the halfcourt so great as a part-time PG in his 3rd season.
It's not especially likely that Felton develops into a sure-fire HOFer like Nash, but it's not out of the question, and so that brings us back to the original question.... how aggressively do we pursue a new PG? It's obviously time to start thinking about it, since 11 of the 17 players on my list broke out by their 3rd year. But it's not over, and I don't understand thinking that it would be "magic" for him to become really good in the future.
It's no more unlikely than Gerald Wallace developing into a star, and a hell of a lot more likely than many PGs.