Odom Playing Small Forward

[EHL]

-= original quote snipped =-



Well, I don't obviously agree with that either, and it doesn't seem like we'll ever see eye to eye about Lamar, because I see him as a better shooter, you a worse shooter, and I see him as impactful even when struggling with the jump shot, while you don't, but I don't think it does the conversation any good to continuously go back and forth cherry picking Tex Winter statements about Lamar, which we've done on several occasions, me choosing the more positive ones, you selecting the more negative ones.

At least I do actually acknowledge and talk about the negative criticisms of Lamar by Tex though, while it doesn't seem that you have any interest except somehow trying to prove that Tex Winter doesn't like Lamar's game and doesn't believe he "gets" the Triangle, and I should also point out that I agree that Lamar would be at his best in the Tri, in the playoffs, with his jump shot rather than without it.

My argument isn't based on just concentrating on the negative, I've addressed your references to "positive" Tex quotes, which are mostly weak or out of context statements. In your last example, it wasn't even a direct quote.

Also, I can't really see how you can argue about LO's jump shooting this season, which has been nothing short of awful, or the fact that this is clearly LO's worst season in his Laker career. At the age of 28, healthy, and with all the opportunities in the world to succeed, it's completely unacceptable that he's this inconsistent. The coaching staff, plus Tex, agree, and there's nothing you can do to change their minds or Laker fan's minds who see the writing on the wall now that Gasol is here.

Also, as I've stated before, and something you've taken offense to, is that your LO agenda is as clear as day, despite your tone and posts suggesting that you are being objective in LO discussions. When you say that you are concerned with "maximizing the strengths of the players who are currently on our team", do you think people actually believe you, knowing that you talk about LO 90% of the time you post? It would be more accurate, based on your posts, for you to claim that you are concerned with "maximizing the strengths Lamar Odom". In which case, people here (and elsewhere) would more willingly back off on replying to your posts, knowing that they are slanted to put a positive spin on LO. You may take offense to this, but it's rooted in precisely what you post about Lamar and how you often you post about Lamar.

[critical_beatdown]

Well, when there are more topics and discussion, I discuss everything, as my history at ClubLakers would attest, where I often am found in the Draft thread, the NBA thread, commenting on many threads in the Discussion area, in past seasons defending guys like Sasha, Farmar, Rad, Luke, etc.

So, yes Lamar is one of my main subjects, because I really believe in the guys ability and talent, especially in tandem with Kobe Bryant, but you are clearly exaggerating the extent of it, since Lamar is not even close to 90% of my posts, not even on this board if you go back through my whole history here, as I'm sure some mods could attest.

90% of my posts today? Maybe.

And where have I defended Lamar's jump shooting this season thus far? Haven't I been saying he's in a horrible slump that is a historical anomaly for him? Obviously that is not a compliment and instead an acknowledgement of his notably poor shooting.

So, whether or not Lamar is one of my main subjects of interest, primarily because I've always believed that people were mistaken in comparing his game to Pippen, or considering him a "2nd option", or wanting him to change rather than optimize what he brings, I am no more "subjective" or un-objective than anyone else bringing their opinions, since I'm not paid by Lamar Odom, I don't work for Lamar Odom, I don't know Lamar Odom, I've never met Lamar Odom, and I've never even paid attention to the dude all that much until he became a Laker.

I am a longtime Lakers fan since Norm Nixon was running the point, and before Magic came along, so honestly I resent this (continuing) implication that I am not as good a fan, or am not "objective" (and somehow others are), and have some kind of "secret agenda" because I've defended Lamar consistently over the past 2 1/2 seasons as an essential piece to our championship puzzle (and my mind has not changed, though it might after this Gasol deal down the line).

[EiRON]

Keep Lamar. Big 4 is better than having a Big 3

[KObe Bryant]

lamar is always averaging 13 PPG and 10 RPG before the deadline , same as last year i think and he end up to 15.9 PPG and 10 RPG last season. I think he'll dominate the SF. He would be given a chance to step up as a SF.

[EHL]

^ I know for a fact 90%+ of your posts at LG are LO-related. Here, the split is probably not as high, but ridiculously high nonetheless, I guess 75% would be more accurate. The fact that you said you started posting again specifically to defend Lamar Odom from what you deemed unfair criticism. In fact, your increase in post counts about LO are directly correlated with his poor games, as you just semi-admitted.

If you really don't think people should question your objectivity based on the above facts, I don't know what to tell you other than you're only fooling yourself. No, Odom doesn't play off the ball well, no he doesn't understand the triangle well, no he isn't playing defense this season, and no he isn't going to average 7 apg with Gasol (at least not for any significant length of time, like 40 games or an entire season especially).

[Danny Darko]

Nobody really knows right now.

Lamar may pan out and create mismatches while using his length to defend and relying on the bigs as his last line of protection. He can be a big rebounding force on a stacked line.

Lamar may look ackward, play stupid, and let guys go where they want getting our bigs into foul trouble like smush did last year, but in the end only time will tell.

If he does fail, we won't likely move him until his contract becomes way more attractive next year as an expiring. At this point, I'm rooting for him to succeed. His faults at their worst are better than Artests at his worst, and despite the old "Rodman" cry Phil is no genius with crazy people.... crazy people are just that. Remember J.R. Rider?

[LakerFanSince84]

U people are silly, if anything trade Luke Walton because u don't need him or his MLE anymore. I'd keep all the versatile players like odom, and maybe Radman. Walton sucks coming off the bench, he'll never start as a laker again. Odom's defense is just fine, I don't know what u guys watch. Defensively, with the length that we have, we'll be very very very scary when bynum gets back.

GIVE ODOM A CHANCE, THERE IS NO PRESSURE ON HIM AT ALL NOW. HE Can fly under the radar, rebound, and run the break when he can. His passing is as good as any forward on our team.

I would keep Odom and Ariza at the small forward position. I would trade either Walton or Vlad because Luke seems to be satisfied with his contract, and Vlad only shows up once every 2 1/2 weeks. I'm indifferent about trading either one of them. Bring in Gasol made both of them extremely expendable.

[Jajwanda]

-= original quote snipped =-



Sky and I frequently disagree, though we probably agree about more than we disagree, but reading his latest on Lamar is definitely not going to change my mind, since we've been through this too many times to count.

I am concerned though that since you adopted Sky as your hero, which is your right, that you've also gradually seemed to adopt his tone, which is frequently dismissive, impatient and arrogant with those who dare challenge his opinions/proclamations (and no, I'm not sure where he earned that entitlement either).

All that said, Sky does have a keen basketball mind, and definitely has had an impact on my thinking when it comes to the defensive side of the basketball, despite our personal differences, and I would encourage anyone to consider his arguments carefully, including about Lamar.

Well to be fair I could have gone and completely trashed Sky's argument that Bynum was not an anchor and that Jermaine O'Neal was a necessary to keeping Kobe.

[milesfides]

I think it's important that we don't peg people as a "this" or "that" homer. There's been a lot of that going on for the past year.

Arguments should stand on the strength of evidence and logic. Period. There's too many good points, too many good posters for these discussions to degenerate into ad hominem arguments.

Unless we uncover some ulterior motive, such as pumping up a certain Laker in order to demean or devalue another Laker, let's not start attacking people's motives or reputation.

I think it's fun and perfectly justified to have favorite Lakers; what I find a bit destructive is the demonstration of a consistent and irrational dislike towards a player.

Considering Odom's struggles, I think it's definitely justifiable to debate his future with the team. But let's discuss rationally with good faith, and upon encountering irreconcilable differences, respect those differences.

Just my opinion as a poster for the past 3+ years, not as a mod. Considering I've felt that personally, even very recently, as well as being guilty of it myself in the past, I think there's too many valuable posters here to start discrediting each other.

[rambo_ortega]

how about starting him at point a la magic johnson then let luke walton start at sf?

[Slava]

how about starting him at point a la magic johnson then let luke walton start at sf?

That'd be even worse. Our primary 3 pt shooting comes from our PGs and sitting them in favor of Odom can only mean more doom. Stretching the floor is the main deal here and we sure as hell don't want teams zoning us.

[Jajwanda]

I worry that the defense is going to truly start sagging with Lamar at the 3. Although to be entirely honest he hasn't played the post all that much anyway lately so it might not be much of a change.

[ClubLakers KB8]

Odom stays for this season and then will see the door. The Lakers need a starting SF who can drill the trey desperately. Mike Miller will be sought.

[davidse]

This is a joke.
What we need from our SF: Team play, perimeter defence, shooting/spacing.
What Odom brings to that: 1/3. For 14 million dollars. GTFO.

"exploiting matchups at the 3?"
how often has odom ever done that in his career? he passes up post opportuinies against 6'5 guards FFS.

TBH at this point...I'd rather run with Fish-Vujacic or Farmar-Kobe-Gasol-Bynum. We need that spacing to let Kobe, Gasol and Bynum get to work in the pinch, mid and low post respectively.

He'll be here for the rest of the season for sure...but when we get zoned out of games....he is for sure gone in the offseason.

And I don't know when you decided to turn into an odomhomer in the b-scott mould.
speaking of...haven't seen him around since gasol got traded...

gets it ^

very good post u-borat !
seems like critical has accepted he has no basketball case other than wishfull thinking that all of a sudden lamar will become a consistent outside shooter - so he decided to focus on my "style" of posting and turn this into a personal insult contast...
can't say i blame him really...

and yeah, i'm sure that now when we have bynum and gasol in the starting line up, we're gonna "take advantage" of lamar's size at small forward...
yeah, NOW is the time when we're really gonna take advantage of that...

[davidse]

Odom stays for this season and then will see the door. The Lakers need a starting SF who can drill the trey desperately. Mike Miller will be sought.

mike miller would be a dream for this line up.
we'll be indefenceble.
but i have a hunch (nothing but a hunch) he'll be traded to the spurs in a matter of days.

[salmahayek]

LO has been a galvanizing topic on this board for some time and now with the Lakers poised for big things with the Gasol acquisition, that still hasn't changed.

LO has his issues, but whether he has played SF or PF, he has filled up the box score. He has a lot of positives, his out-dueling the Matrix in the playoffs, being one of them.

It remains to be seen how Gasol adapts to being a Laker and playing in the triangle and the biggest factor of all - literally - is how, when, and if Bynum comes back.

To me, those last two points are bigger than how LO adapts to a potential new role.

One idea I have not heard, but may be worth exploring is making Odom the sixth man, with Gasol getting all the backup C minutes after Bynum is back. He could play the majority of his minutes at the four and some at the three. LO could play more minutes with the second unit, and run with Farmar, Ariza, etc.

All in all, trying to fit LO in with what we are trying to do to win a championship is a good problem to have.

[davidse]

we can't afford that problem salma.

this year we have to - because of the injuries and odom having to play pf.

but next season ?

look at our salary numbers, add a new contract for ronny, ariza, and probably sasha too, and then tell me we can afford a guy like odom on the bench, and we can find a much cheaper player to start at sf who'll be much more effective than odom because of outside shooting ability - which is crucial if you want to take full advantage of having gasol and bynum (and kobe) on the team.

even if we win it all this year - unless odom plays a major MAJOR part - it makes no sense to keep him.

[critical_beatdown]

I am far from a "we must keep Lamar no matter what" person, especially now that we've added Gasol, but I'm also far from a "we should dump him for a spot-up shooter" person, and I will explain part of my reasoning now, which is not based on "wishful thinking".

First, I am under no illusions that Lamar is suddenly going to become a Mike Miller, but I am also under no illusion that his current shooting slump is normal for him and will continue. Sky and others are currently in love with dropping that Lamar is shooting 22% on treys and 33% on jumpers, but those percentages are way, way off his historical averages, so why should we assume they will continue, especially midway through a season when Lamar is coming back from shoulder surgery?

So it doesn't take wishful thinking to imagine that Lamar will return to being about a 33-34% trey shooter and 40% jump shooter.

Here is where my calculations would come into play, asking the question, "does everything else that Lamar will bring with his size, length, athleticism, versatility weigh more heavily than would bringing in (if possible) a 38-40% trey shooter and 50+% jump shooter?"

In answering this question, I would keep in mind that over the last month, Lamar Odom is the only player in the league with 4+ assists per game who also has 10+ rebounds per game. The only player in the league. For the season, or at other points of the season, you could include guys like KG in that category, maybe one or two others, while Lamar would actually drop out (since not a good assist man early this season).

But it doesn't take wishful thinking to suggest that Lamar will finish strong this season either, since he has come up big for us the last two seasons down the stretch and into the playoffs, playing his best basketball and being a true warrior, and we have already seen him bounce back from his horrible November to put up much better performances in December and January (to the tune of approaching a 3:1 A:TO ratio while grabbing 10+ boards).

So, putting all the snark and arrogance aside, where's all my "wishful thinking"? We know Lamar finishes strong, we know he's shot jumpers much better in the past than to date this season, we know when called upon the biggest stage that he can destroy elite defensive small forwards like Shawn Marion (i.e. small forwards cannot really cover Lamar consistently), and the evidence from this year is that small forwards don't generally burn or have their way with Lamar either (despite some insisting Lamar will never play good D).

Again, the calculation will be what Lamar can bring in mismatches and playmaking, size and versatility, familiarity and ability to play/defend 3-4 positions, compared to a more traditional sized 3 with a better spot up shot (who may or may not have a defensive edge over Lamar, since there are few ace SF defenders worth mentioning who can shoot).

If Lamar doesn't win this calculation, as time goes forward, I won't be standing in the way, though the only people that matter are the front office and coaching staff, not us, and the "contract" element will weigh heavily on the equation against Lamar after this season, so he really has to put in the hard work, focus, and effort.

I can't put it any simpler than that, but I will over time expand on this in terms of expanding upon Lamar's strengths/weaknesses, as well as comparing him to other players and their progression, like Trevor Ariza on our own squad, or Shane Battier on another squad (though I could never see us trading Lamar to Houston), but in the end Tex Winter still has dreams of Lamar powering out on the break and maximizing his impact, much more along the lines of Magic Johnson than Scottie Pippen, but Lamar is neither of those guys, just his own unique self.

Don't try to change him...optimize him. Don't just build an ideal offense and then force the players into it, you have to both adapt the players to the system and adapt the system to your players. Their strengths, weaknesses, synergistically.

With the arrival of Gasol, we start over the evaluation process a little bit, while finally having some closure on what position Lamar will really play (once Drew is healthy), which is SF, and whether he's the best fit there for us in terms of talent, skill set, intangibles, and contract, compared to other options, as far as winning championships.

I still believe that Lamar will pass this test, as far as his own play, but that the inevitable financial realities will not allow for any certainty as to his fate until that negotiation eventually takes place (and maybe Lamar takes more money elsewhere than we could realistically offer).

[Deity Allah]

I am far from a "we must keep Lamar no matter what" person, especially now that we've added Gasol, but I'm also far from a "we should dump him for a spot-up shooter" person, and I will explain part of my reasoning now, which is not based on "wishful thinking".

First, I am under no illusions that Lamar is suddenly going to become a Mike Miller, but I am also under no illusion that his current shooting slump is normal for him and will continue. Sky and others are currently in love with dropping that Lamar is shooting 22% on treys and 33% on jumpers, but those percentages are way, way off his historical averages, so why should we assume they will continue, especially midway through a season when Lamar is coming back from shoulder surgery?

So it doesn't take wishful thinking to imagine that Lamar will return to being about a 33-34% trey shooter and 40% jump shooter.

Here is where my calculations would come into play, asking the question, "does everything else that Lamar will bring with his size, length, athleticism, versatility weigh more heavily than would bringing in (if possible) a 38-40% trey shooter and 50+% jump shooter?"

In answering this question, I would keep in mind that over the last month, Lamar Odom is the only player in the league with 4+ assists per game who also has 10+ rebounds per game. The only player in the league. For the season, or at other points of the season, you could include guys like KG in that category, maybe one or two others, while Lamar would actually drop out (since not a good assist man early this season).

But it doesn't take wishful thinking to suggest that Lamar will finish strong this season either, since he has come up big for us the last two seasons down the stretch and into the playoffs, playing his best basketball and being a true warrior, and we have already seen him bounce back from his horrible November to put up much better performances in December and January (to the tune of approaching a 3:1 A:TO ratio while grabbing 10+ boards).

So, putting all the snark and arrogance aside, where's all my "wishful thinking"? We know Lamar finishes strong, we know he's shot jumpers much better in the past than to date this season, we know when called upon the biggest stage that he can destroy elite defensive small forwards like Shawn Marion (i.e. small forwards cannot really cover Lamar consistently), and the evidence from this year is that small forwards don't generally burn or have their way with Lamar either (despite some insisting Lamar will never play good D).

Again, the calculation will be what Lamar can bring in mismatches and playmaking, size and versatility, familiarity and ability to play/defend 3-4 positions, compared to a more traditional sized 3 with a better spot up shot (who may or may not have a defensive edge over Lamar, since there are few ace SF defenders worth mentioning who can shoot).

If Lamar doesn't win this calculation, as time goes forward, I won't be standing in the way, though the only people that matter are the front office and coaching staff, not us, and the "contract" element will weigh heavily on the equation against Lamar after this season, so he really has to put in the hard work, focus, and effort.

I can't put it any simpler than that, but I will over time expand on this in terms of expanding upon Lamar's strengths/weaknesses, as well as comparing him to other players and their progression, like Trevor Ariza on our own squad, or Shane Battier on another squad (though I could never see us trading Lamar to Houston), but in the end Tex Winter still has dreams of Lamar powering out on the break and maximizing his impact, much more along the lines of Magic Johnson than Scottie Pippen, but Lamar is neither of those guys, just his own unique self.

Don't try to change him...optimize him. Don't just build an ideal offense and then force the players into it, you have to both adapt the players to the system and adapt the system to your players. Their strengths, weaknesses, synergistically.

With the arrival of Gasol, we start over the evaluation process a little bit, while finally having some closure on what position Lamar will really play (once Drew is healthy), which is SF, and whether he's the best fit there for us in terms of talent, skill set, intangibles, and contract, compared to other options, as far as winning championships.

I still believe that Lamar will pass this test, as far as his own play, but that the inevitable financial realities will not allow for any certainty as to his fate until that negotiation eventually takes place (and maybe Lamar takes more money elsewhere than we could realistically offer).

They don't call him The Goodz for nothing, Preach!

P.S.: I still hate the Lakers and would love nothing better than for them to trade him

[EHL]

What I find disingenuous about your argument CB is that Lamar's jump shooting percentages have been bad all season; those are his percentages through 42 games. That's more than half the season. If LO is that unreliable, which prior seasons indicate that he is, then he's not nearly as useful at the 3 as a guy like, say, Pietrus. To ignore his currently pathetic percentages are merely "not the norm" is excuse making at its finest; how the hell can you call 42 games "not his norm", when last season he was also a sub-30% 3-point shooter (and players sagged off him on his mid-range jumpers too), and the year before he was around 31% from distance before going on what was now, clearly, an outlier of a hot streak he couldn