WC AS snubees

[tsherkin]

Sorry that I have a problem. I went on a date with a girl, had a few drinks, kissed her goodnight, made dinner, chatted with my roommate and now I'm in bed typing this to you. If you really expect me to write a point by point counter argument for the next hour then you are going to be disappointed.

Learn to type faster.

But yes, of course, Brandon Roy is a much better shooter, a more clutch performer, a better penetrator and finisher, a better ball handler, a better scorer, and a better person than Baron Davis.

Ah, hyperbole, the last resort of those without a significant counter.

I'm just going to overlook the fact that Baron scores more, hands out more assists, is second in the league in steals, hits twice as many 3pters per game at a higher percentage, grabs more rebounds, and has led his team to 43 wins in their past 67 regular season games.

Steals are, by and large, one of the most useless stats to track. And again, raw PPG is irrelevant. As far as wins go, where's Baron's 13-game winning streak?

But he's just a system player that chucks the ball too much.

Do you disagree that 6+ 3PA/g is a bad thing for Baron to be taking? Do you honestly believe a 35% shooter should be taking that many shots from that range?

[Wizenheimer]

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Yeah, because I'm sure that they are completely impartial and unbiased, right? The whole coaching fraternity thing is a complete urban legend.

I would assume they are biased...just like all the fans in the popular vote that you point to.

But i'm certain they know more about basketball and the NBA then those fans, including the ones on RealGM

[St.Nick]

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Do you disagree that 6+ 3PA/g is a bad thing for Baron to be taking? Do you honestly believe a 35% shooter should be taking that many shots from that range?

Nellie's system calls for his guys to jack 3 pointers in the half court set as often as possible. This is why non-regular observers of the Warriors watch us and think we're a bunch of undisciplined chuckers. Most of them don't know that Nelson gets "angry" and even pulls players for not taking shots.

The bottom line is, does the system work? Well, in the regular season...yes. In the post-season..it depends on who you are playing against. But again, 43 wins in their past 67 regular season games. I believe that the only team with more wins over this span is the Boston Celtics. So you can take that 13 game winning streak and cram it right up into the big picture

And the hyperbole is the act of a tired man that is exhausted by getting stats that he's never heard of put in front of his nose...."scaled usage rates according to their team's respective possessions" and "higher scoring efficiency (TS%) at the rim"...I mean, come on, bro. Those stats are just too out there and too foreign for me to make a counterargument.

That'd be like a solar physicist asking you to give the counterargument to the theory of blah, blah, blah (something else I don't know) about the solar system. He could probably throw enough fancy and confusing terms at you to make the case that the earth is skidding along the rings of Saturn, but just because you don't know how to respond in kind doesn't make what he's saying to be true.

So you tell me in plain speak Turducken ( ), is Brandon Roy better than Baron Davis?

[Wizenheimer]

So you tell me in plain speak Turducken ( ), is Brandon Roy better than Baron Davis?

I can't speak for tsherkin on this but I can answer for myself. Is Roy better then Davis..probably no. If Davis better then Roy...probably yes, but if so, it isn't by much at all.

All the outrage present in this thread about Baron >>>>>>>>Roy was absurdly hyperbolic. They have significantly different styles of play, but the gap between them, if present, is small. It's easily understandable why NBA coaches would prefer Roy's understated efficiency to Baron's flashier game. It was even predictable.

It could have gone either way. And it would have been justifiable either way. That's why the anger by some fans, and the dismissiveness displayed towards Roy's skills and accomplishments is off the mark.

[Charlie78]

Yes

This is actually getting to be fun because I am literally convinced you have never looked deeper in to baron

[tsherkin]

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Nellie's system calls for his guys to jack 3 pointers in the half court set as often as possible. This is why non-regular observers of the Warriors watch us and think we're a bunch of undisciplined chuckers. Most of them don't know that Nelson gets "angry" and even pulls players for not taking shots.

I realize that, and I wouldn't characterize Baron as an undisciplined chucker if I hadn't been watching him since he was drafted. Remember the year he took 8.7 3PA/g? Yes, in Nellie's system he's SUPPOSED to take a lot of 3s but that doesn't make him any better at it, nor does it make the shots any better. Again, the coach excuse doesn't work here because Baron has a history of idiotic shot selection.

So you can take that 13 game winning streak and cram it right up into the big picture

My point was merely that arguing wins is purely semantic and has no bearing on anything; Baron had better teammates last year than Roy has and that is surely affecting the situation.

And the hyperbole is the act of a tired man that is exhausted by getting stats that he's never heard of put in front of his nose...."scaled usage rates according to their team's respective possessions" and "higher scoring efficiency (TS%) at the rim"...I mean, come on, bro. Those stats are just too out there and too foreign for me to make a counterargument.

Then let me make them exceedingly easy to understand.

Usage rate, which is the short-hand for the stat, is simply the percentage of total team possessions a given player uses. So if you get 100 possessions a game as a team and your usage rate is 25, you're getting 25 possessions. If your usage rate is 25 on a 90-possession team, you're getting 22.5 possessions.

The "scaled" comment merely refers to the fact that the stat adjusts for pace so that different teams can be compared evenly.

And higher scoring efficiency at the rim isn't a strange stat, I was talking about raw FG% in the zone right by the rim. TS% is separate, that's just efficiency accounting for FTs drawn. It's generally (total points x 50)/(FGA + 0.44*FTA).

So you tell me in plain speak Turducken ( ), is Brandon Roy better than Baron Davis?

Well, heh. Define "better."

How do you approach the term?

More useful to his team? More useful to a team in general? More skilled?

I mean, that's where you really have to start.

[Charlie78]

Baron

[Charlie78]

Then why was it so high at his previous stop. Plain and simple baron is at least a bit of a chucker and no Long range bomber as St. Nick would have us think. The evidence points to nellie actually making baron a more efficient player in his system which would counter his assessment that it isnt that baron wants to throw up so many threes but that he is forced to.

When in fact baron likes taking alot of threes despite not being very good at it with or without nellie. I am merely pointing out that there is not a style of play in the world were baron wouldnt take 6-7 threes a game.

I would add that this is actually something that I find to be an important characteristic in a star player. They need to beleive that the next one is always going to go in. Clearly Baron has total confidence in himself, it is just not realistic. This is why he could be a top five player in the NBA, because he has all the tools he just doesnt know how to use them and until he does he will be a borderline all star, and in 20 years he will be a footnote in the NBA game unless he changes the way he plays.

[tsherkin]

Some legit points, Charlie. I was not defending Baron's shot selection really but pointing out that the comment made was valid; Nellie does absolutely make it clear that you are to take open 3s, whether you can make them or not; anyone who watches Warriors ball knows that. When players are taking screamer shots (as in "ZOMG, WTF are you doing?!?") and the coach doesn't even flinch, that's something he's made very clear has his approval.