Odom Playing Small Forward

[EHL]

What I find disingenuous about your argument CB is that Lamar's jump shooting percentages have been bad all season; those are his percentages through 42 games. That's more than half the season. If LO is that unreliable, which prior seasons indicate that he is, then he's not nearly as useful at the 3 as a guy like, say, Pietrus. To ignore his currently pathetic percentages are merely "not the norm" is excuse making at its finest; how the hell can you call 42 games "not his norm", when last season he was also a sub-30% 3-point shooter (and players sagged off him on his mid-range jumpers too), and the year before he was around 31% from distance before going on what was now, clearly, an outlier of a hot streak he couldn

[Jajwanda]

They may begin to look for SFs almost immediately.

I would not be surprised if the Lakers play Odom at SF against the Nets to see how he does against Jefferson.

[B-Scott]

EHL - You hate on Lamar even when he plays well

If he put together 17 and 12 for a 20 game stretch,you would find something negative to say.

Lamar will not be playing all 48 minutes at SF, even if he started there because guys get tired and lineups change during the course of a game. The Lakers might start the game with Lamar at SF,but in the 2nd quarter you could see Bynum and Lamar up front with Gasol on the bench or Gasol and Lamar up front with Bynum on the bench.

The 2nd quarter lineup could end up being

C Bynum
PF Lamar
SF Ariza
SG Sasha
PG Farmar

Just because LO would be a SF does not mean he plays the full 48 minutes there. James Worthy was listed at SF,but he played a lot of PF also with the 80s Lakers when they went with Kareem, Worthy, Magic, Scott, Cooper in the 4th quarter.

[Sofa King]

EHL - You hate on Lamar even when he plays well

Hmmm... too easy.

[B-Scott]

Odom's passing and willingness to be unselfish is actually perfect for a team with a lot of offensive weapons.

[critical_beatdown]

What I find disingenuous about your argument CB is that Lamar's jump shooting percentages have been bad all season; those are his percentages through 42 games. That's more than half the season. If LO is that unreliable, which prior seasons indicate that he is, then he's not nearly as useful at the 3 as a guy like, say, Pietrus. To ignore his currently pathetic percentages are merely "not the norm" is excuse making at its finest; how the hell can you call 42 games "not his norm", when last season he was also a sub-30% 3-point shooter (and players sagged off him on his mid-range jumpers too), and the year before he was around 31% from distance before going on what was now, clearly, an outlier of a hot streak he couldn

[critical_beatdown]

Anyway, you can make the comparisons to KG all you want, the fact that LO grabs 10 boards while getting 4+ assists over the last few weeks or whatever it is (it

[critical_beatdown]

1. Develop a consistent midrange game and 3 shot
2. Consistently make aggressive cuts off the ball
3. Dribble create and pass quickly to set up teammates
4. Play better defense man up at 3
5. Be willing to take a 33-50% paycut.

Hard to argue with that, though I would say that Lamar did #4 much better than anyone gave him credit for earlier in the season, blaming most of Pierce's and Jefferson's production on him when it was clearly Luke and Vlad who were the ones getting abused, or other guys on switches (Pierce and Jefferson got almost nothing going on Lamar, didn't shoot great over him, and couldn't get around him).

I would also say that he's been doing #3 very well of late, and seems to finding a groove, which will only get better when he actually has an experienced, multi-talented scorer in the post to pass to in Pau Gasol (who Lamar also has a large amount of respect for). I don't feel he'll have any problem with this item, or likely with #4.

The "calculation", as I put it, emphasizes mostly #1 and #5, and #2 is an ongoing concern that isn't a make or break thing as far as keeping Lamar, in my opinion, since he will continue to improve at it, if even slower than Tex would like, our spacing is about to improve, and #1 is really the more important item, since he could great at cutting to the basket but we're still going to need a midrange game from him regardless (or defenses will pack it in).

[EHL]

-= original quote snipped =-

There's nothing disingenuous about it. Not only did Lamar close out half the season very well on jump shots that season, but also opened it the next for the first 20 games also tearing it up. The key element in that offseason is that Lamar didn't have to rehab after shoulder surgery.

Either way, you can't say that Lamar's history says he's "this unreliable", when looking at this current shooting numbers, because he's never approached shooting this bad, for this long, so it's just natural to assume that it will come back up, especially when factoring in the shoulder surgery and rehab.

Did I say he would climb back up to where I hoped he was rising in 2006? No I didn't. At this point, I would be happy to see Lamar get back to around 33% on treys and 40+% on jumpers, then worry about whether he can improve upon that. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm right, or that you're right, I'm wrong, about the other season (anymore, I've listened to you), but I am saying that we'll never really know if Lamar would have kept it up because of the second shoulder injury, surgery and rehab over the offseason.

If we don't trade him in the offseason, we'll probably get another chance to see if he can get that jump shot clicking without having major disruptions in terms of injury/surgery/rehab, if we do trade him then it won't matter, but "the calculation" as far as keeping Lamar will probably come down to deciding how valuable Lamar is at his historical percentages, as he climbs back to them over the rest of the season, not overly emphasizing his percentages thus far this season, which there is little reason to believe will continue.

The real test will still be after a healthy offseason though, which he hasn't had two of the past three seasons, which itself is a huge consideration for the Lakers, no doubt. At some point, you need to know which way this is going to go, in terms of Lamar being able to hit shots on the wing, without being worried about him not being able to work on it in the offseason and having to push expectations further down the road.

Lamar has approached numbers this bad, worse in fact, in 2002 with the Clippers when he shot 19% from the floor for 29 games. Not quite as long as 41 games, but it

[critical_beatdown]

Notice how you specifically state in the above paragraph that I was "suggesting" you were ignoring these things. That's in your head, I can't help what you think.

(it

[critical_beatdown]

if Gasol or Bynum were to ever get into foul trouble during a critical stretch of a playoff series, Odom is going to have to step up, Kobe can

[EHL]

^ Haha, your excuse making is so transparent, but thanks for conceding the discussion, I was getting tired of babying it with you.

[EHL]

For those interested in objective discussion WRT the triangle learning curve, take a look at Jackson's comments about Gasol:


"Gasol is set to debut Tuesday at New Jersey. He watched the second half from the Lakers

[critical_beatdown]

^ Haha, your excuse making is so transparent. Like I said before, consensus among Laker fans and coaches is that Odom can't learn the tri (cut, screen, roll, facilitate, shoot, be aggressive, etc.), and it's why he has stunk as a Laker. You can to make excuses about injuries, learning curves, etc. but each day that passes LO actually gets worse. Just today Phil said the following about Gasol: "Jackson noted the triangle is easier to learn for big men and said of Gasol

[EHL]

LO "bringing it" in the playoffs or 2nd half of seasons is relative, since his best is not good enough, something you continue to ignore in favor of "he averaged 19 ppg!". Had that been Pau Gasol or any other legit All Star, we'd be talking about how the Lakers lost to the Spurs in the WCF one of those seasons, not about how they collapsed after a 3-1 lead.

But funny that you even mention Kwame in a discussion about learning curves, as he's about as dumb as they come. Doesn't exactly strengthen your argument. And as evidenced by guys like Ariza, you can indeed integrate seamlessly into a position within the triangle in a matter of weeks. LO at the 3? Well, November speaks for itself.

[critical_beatdown]

Since the Tex Winter cherry picking doesn't look like it's ending any time soon, or the suggestion that Tex isn't really high on Lamar, and when he criticizes him is doing so constructively and with the clear conviction that he can do better, here we go:

[EHL]

Tex's recent comments tell the story, not some comments from last season or the season before. You can look at the past all you like, this season is Odom's worst as a Laker by far, arguably of his career. There's no excuse for having basically no jump shot for 41 games, even if he were to regain it in the 2nd half of the season. I hope he does.

[critical_beatdown]

And as evidenced by guys like Ariza, you can indeed integrate seamlessly into a position within the triangle in a matter of weeks. LO at the 3? Well, November speaks for itself.

November means "no training camp" and "lack of game shape" in my eyes, which is equally as valid as your interpretation, and Ariza has not been that great in the Triangle, in all honesty, and certainly wasn't asked to learn it from the get-go like Lamar was, as a ball handling guard and initiator, or has that been forgotten already?

Again, there is an important difference between "basic learning" and "mastery", as well as being beyond criticism.

[critical_beatdown]

Another quote from Tex and Phil out of the archives, to show that their criticism is hardly related to who stays and goes around here, or their true estimation of a player (even if he does disappoint them):

The last time the Los Angeles Lakers mattered, of course, it was Kobe who tore them apart. Not alone, because it was L.A., where every drama has multiple actors. But in the 2004 Finals, after three titles in four years, the pull between Shaq and Kobe ripped the team apart at the seams. Lakers coaches and players alike complained that the structure of the offence was being torn apart, chiefly by one guy. Nobody named names, but back then, he wore No. 8.

"We can't continue to play that way," said Lakers assistant coach Tex Winter, the architect of the triangle offence, at the time. "The ball has to be moved."

"You know, moving the ball if you're double-teamed ... that's the difficulty of coaching superstars," Jackson said. "They have to understand that there's still a fine line that they have to walk. I would hate to name names. I can give initials, though."

We dumped Shaq, kept Kobe, and the rest is history. Tex and Phil have their issues with Lamar right now, obviously, whether shooting or cutting, but it doesn't mean they don't greatly value him, don't think he can do it, or don't think he'll turn it around.

We already know that Mitch has extended a butt slap to Lamar to keep his head up and prove to everyone what we know he can do, so the front office has certainly not given up on Lamar Odom, though the financial realities will eventually come calling, making it all the more important for Lamar to perform at a high level and help us to a championship.

[EHL]

LO came out of the gates with 18 and 10 against the Twolves his first game this season. Looked great physically. The more sensible interpretation, given his recent horrid shooting and timid play/impact for the majority of the past 10 games, is that Odom can't mentally adjust to new roles/responsibilities unless it's taking smaller players in the post every possession (Suns). 2nd option he's clearly no good, so Bynum going down was a shock to him after disappearing into the background as a 3rd option with Bynum healthy. And before that, he couldn't adjust to the 3 in November because he didn't seem comfortable on the perimeter shooting, except his shooting then is just as bad as it is now, so there's no excuse there either.

I suppose we can all hope for another lucky hot streak, but this time it'll have to carry over into the playoffs. And he's never been a good jump shooter in the playoffs.