Ray Felton as our starting PG

[Paydro70]

Alright, this is a general gauge of how the board feels about Ray and what our standards for him and the team are. This is a pretty simple question, but explain your reasoning if you feel like it.

Is Raymond Felton, as he is currently playing, NOT INCLUDING HIS POTENTIAL, a good enough point guard to be our future at the position? Answering "he'll get better" is not what I am looking for, neither is "well he's better than McInnis."

To put it another way, if the Ray we have this season is all we're going to get from him, is this good enough for you?

[Paydro70]

P.S. - Fats, I hope you don't consider this a duplication of the other Felton poll. The consensus in that thread seems to be that Ray can still improve and he is not "done" here. I just want to know what the ratio becomes discounting potential.

[spectre_]

Is Raymond Felton, as he is currently playing, NOT INCLUDING HIS POTENTIAL, a good enough point guard to be our future at the position?

To clarify...this is under the assumption that he NEVER gets any better than right now (which is highly unlikely)?

[W_HAMILTON]

I'm honored to be the first to vote!

And I could have done this myself, but I wanted it done with NAMES. I don't want people to hit a button, I want people (especially some of the ones I mentioned) to go on the record and say whether or not they think Felton RIGHT NOW is good enough to stick with at PG.

Even though, no matter what they post, I already know the answer because I've spent years arguing with their types.

I hope that the "no" wins, because that means everyone that unfairly criticized Knight and Bernie can apologize, the people that blamed Felton stinking on guys like Okafor and Richardson can apologize, and I won't ever have to hear them unfairly trash more of our players / coaches in an attempt to make Felton seem better than he is, because if the consensus is that he is disappointing, there is no need to blame that disappointment on everyone else.

And what is a rich man's Chris Paul? Is Ty Lawson God?

[chabber]

No, if he does not improve, we need a different player.

[Paydro70]

Heh, sorry there's no "report your vote so you can be publicly shamed" option Hamilton. I also don't think that what people said in the past about Felton becomes untrue, necessarily. The "Ray's growth was stunted" argument can never be disproven, and whether people thought he had potential at the time doesn't mean they have to continue thinking it forever.

Spectre: Yes, the assumption is that Ray does not improve, that his stats remain virtually identical for the forseeable future. Whether it's unlikely or not is a separate subject, the goal here is to find out A) how good people think Ray is RIGHT NOW, and thus B) what their standards are for our PG given the team's overall situation.

B will of course be a separate discussion from A. I know Hamilton's answer for B is "very high" because he thinks the rest of our team has trouble creating for itself and thus needs an excellent playmaking/leading PG to turn the team into a winner. But others might think that having an okay PG is acceptable, and that the team really needs its improvement in coaching or the frontcourt or depth or something.

[W_HAMILTON]

86% of games started
35mpg over his career

If he had it, he would have shown it.

This poll, to me, is a question of whether or not you believe he currently "has it."

[fluffernutter]

I voted that it was his.

For many reasons. I guess mostly because I don't see us improving our PG spot much unless we give away/trade a lot. Meaning, if Felton is 75% as good as an A level PG, or even 50% as good, what does it cost the team to make up the 25% or 50% differential? Whatever it costs, it's resources not being put into another spot, i.e. big man, where I think the "bang for the buck" would be greater. Now if we got a sweetheart deal on some promising PG, that is another matter... but those don't happen too often. PG's are pretty valuable.

I'm also extremely suspicious of Vincent's effect upon the team (particularly as illustrated by Okafor's very inconsistent play). It might be the case that a competent coach, a healthy bench, a different offense could generate more consistent play from Felton, even if he does not improve at all. Nobody can claim with a straight face that Vincent is bringing out the best in this team.

So yea, it's Felton's unless we stumble across a PG in the rough, or steal some other team blind.

[Paydro70]

Good answer Fluffer.

[W_HAMILTON]

As one of the biggest Okafor supporters around, Vincent has very little to do with his slump.

The only issue I had with Vincent was (1) playing Okafor at PF for a good portion of the season when he should have been playing him at center and (2) not going to Okafor more offensively, but then it came out that Vincent was telling his guys to go to him more and his PGs weren't listening, so you can scratch (2). And seeing as how he's been playing Okafor more at center lately, you can scratch (1) as well.

Vincent isn't the reason Okafor went through his slump, the reason is Okafor, along with poor PG play for a guy that relies on his team mates to set him up and get him the ball.

[chabber]

I answered no because I agree with Ham that this current team needs a true facilitator to win. Although you could argue that a legit scoring threat down low may help even more.

I like fluffers answer too though. A different offense with defined roles(for Felton too), better bench play and a low post scoring threat and I could see Felton playing a role in our teams success at his current level.

[W_HAMILTON]

How exactly would a "legit scoring threat down low" help out the other players? Richardson is the only good outside shooter we have right now. Is he gonna shoot 50% from 3's if we bring in a "legit scoring threat down low" so we can go back to letting that awful scoring Okafor be an afterthought in our offense?

Is all the coverage a "legit scoring threat down low" will get going to turn Felton and Wallace into good outside shooters?

A "legit" PG that can run a team benefits EVERYONE. He makes EVERYONE better.

A "legit scoring threat down low" just adds another scorer who gets to try to overcome our current poor to average PG play.

There is no position you can add to this team that would benefit it more, and benefit it more quickly, than a competent PG that is able to get most out of the talent around. We have one of the few 20ppg duo's in the league. We have Okafor, who's been showing what he is capable of on offense. We have Mohammed/Carroll, and hopefully Boykins that can add some offensive spark.

Sure, adding more talent would be nice.

But not as nice as adding a real PG.

[W_HAMILTON]

PS - people complain about us playing as individuals too often, and not as a team. Adding another individual talent doesn't change that. It's just yet another talented individual we'd be adding.

It's about time we bring in someone that is capable of bringing those individuals together and getting them to play together as an effective offensive team.

[DaBassSource]

It sounds to me like most arguments that would support Ray...are changed to say that if we get an all-star point guard we would be a better team...Of course we would!!!! If we got an all star anything we would be a better team... I selected No because, I assume from what I have read, that you are asking that "If ALL things remain the same" is he good enough NOW to get us to another level... and I say NO...

But, Big men/Good coaches and a sound supporting cast, win championships. Except in the case of MJ. If those other spots were upgraded to all star levels then we would also be a better team even with Ray's level of play remaining stagnant(which I doubt it would)...

Look at Billups stats the year they won the championship...
Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
03-04 DET 78 78 35.4 0.394 0.388 0.878 0.4 3.1 3.5 5.7 1.1 0.1 2.42 2.30 16.9 -- Billups(Real Good BigMen/Coach)

Look at the last 10 years and who wins championships and who was their PG... and I'm not sure Parker is the kind of PG I hear most of you yelling for...Billups might be...however his stats that year do not blow you away....Then a again (Billups can score "Mr. Big Shot")

BUT IF YOU WANT TO BE IN THE PLAYOFFS EVERY YEAR but not likely to win it all....ONLY up grade to your pass first PG...

Oh yeah and I don't think I have ever said that it was another players fault that Ray is not as good as he should be...

Another thing, I'm from Winston-Salem and CP3 is not a PASS FIRST PG ....he might be a great passer but he is a SCORER and has always been....

[spectre_]

So Hamilton's going to counter every post?

Spectre: Yes, the assumption is that Ray does not improve, that his stats remain virtually identical for the forseeable future. Whether it's unlikely or not is a separate subject, the goal here is to find out A) how good people think Ray is RIGHT NOW, and thus B) what their standards are for our PG given the team's overall situation.

Cool.

This is hard for me for the main reason that I think it's inevitable that he'll get better over time, but I'll play along.

A) My vote goes to "no"...but I definitely feel that he will progress and become "solid"...which IMO is sufficient. If a chance for a Conley comes along by all means take him. We need depth at the position regardless.

There's also salary implications. If Felton can progress enough to be solid and we get him resigned for 6-7 million then it allows for more focus on an athletic PF among other things.

B) We might have been "PG oriented" in the past, but 1) I don't think that works well unless you have one of the 3 or 4 stellar pass first PGs and 2) I like ball/player movement offenses much better. I don't agree that Crash & JSwish HAVE to set up more for others...I think they SHOULD set up more for others. They are the most deadly in regards to offense and require the most focus from the opponent; it's only fitting that they look to pass out of the tight D to players who are open. Mek also needs to work on passing out of double teams more...if his offense keeps up like it has been he's going to see it a lot.

I also don't agree that this vote forces an "apology" nor does it give any player a pass for poor play; if Mek becomes "Toodles" and misses 5 pont blank shots it's on him...not on Felton.

[chabber]

Haha, Ham I'm not going get in an debate with you on this. I'll just reinforce that I said it's arguable and I didn't even clarify that it's my view that a legit low post scorer would help more than a "True PG".

[Paydro70]

Well, it's certainly true that a pass-first PG is not necessary for a championship, and I don't think that PG is any more important than any other position.

Hamilton's response to this, which he's already made and I think is a very good one, is essentially that other positions can play that role. Kobe, LeBron, Wade, and AI are all engines that make the team "go" the way Nash does or Jason Kidd used to do. The alternative is an extremely talented post player like KG, Dirk, or Tim Duncan, who can handle and pass and make good decisions with the ball.

What this line of argument assumes is that Crash, Emeka, and JRich are not those types of players. They have great skills, but because they are not good handlers or passers (or even "average") we absolutely NEED a player who is a pass-first point guard with fantastic handle and decision-making. A scoring PG might be useful to another team, but this argument assumes that we have sufficient offensive firepower, we just need someone to help make the team more efficient on offense.

I would say that even if this line of argument is correct, we would need a legit post scorer, or Emeka would have to get better. I know Hamilton thinks that Ray is holding Emeka back and he's secretly an offensive beast, but I don't agree.

Also, I don't think Hamilton is suggesting that we need to get an All-star PG to replace Ray. He steadfastly refuses to tell us what PGs meet his standards (because he does not watch them play) but I would hazard a guess on his behalf that guys like:
Jose Calderon, Earl Watson, Steve Blake, Chris Duhon, Antonio Daniels, Mike Conley, Luke Ridnour, Anthony Carter, or Anthony Johnson would all work. I got that list by going down the assist rate listing and excluding guys I know shoot a lot. These are some of the most unselfish passers in the league, and that's what we would want, presumably.

[DaBassSource]

Well, it's certainly true that a pass-first PG is not necessary for a championship, and I don't think that PG is any more important than any other position.

Hamilton's response to this, which he's already made and I think is a very good one, is essentially that other positions can play that role. Kobe, LeBron, Wade, and AI are all engines that make the team "go" the way Nash does or Jason Kidd used to do. The alternative is an extremely talented post player like KG, Dirk, or Tim Duncan, who can handle and pass and make good decisions with the ball.

What this line of argument assumes is that Crash, Emeka, and JRich are not those types of players. They have great skills, but because they are not good handlers or passers (or even "average") we absolutely NEED a player who is a pass-first point guard with fantastic handle and decision-making. A scoring PG might be useful to another team, but this argument assumes that we have sufficient offensive firepower, we just need someone to help make the team more efficient on offense.

I would say that even if this line of argument is correct, we would need a legit post scorer, or Emeka would have to get better. I know Hamilton thinks that Ray is holding Emeka back and he's secretly an offensive beast, but I don't agree.

Also, I don't think Hamilton is suggesting that we need to get an All-star PG to replace Ray. He steadfastly refuses to tell us what PGs meet his standards (because he does not watch them play) but I would hazard a guess on his behalf that guys like:
Jose Calderon, Earl Watson, Steve Blake, Chris Duhon, Antonio Daniels, Mike Conley, Luke Ridnour, Anthony Carter, or Anthony Johnson would all work. I got that list by going down the assist rate listing and excluding guys I know shoot a lot. These are some of the most unselfish passers in the league, and that's what we would want, presumably.

The only one from your list that I see making any difference is Calderon and he is a very good PG with a lot of experience.

And I'm still not sure our team/coach (considering ALL other things remain the same) would mesh with his skill set... However, he would be best of the bunch...

Also sorry if I don't know what kind of PG he is referring to... I don't think BK makes this team a whole lot better (if any). And CP3 is an all-star. Those are the ones I hear him speaking of most.....

[Walt Cronkite]

JM Calderon, Chris Duhon, Antonio Daniels, Mike Conley, and probably Anthony Johnson would all be good additions.

If it was low risk, I'd take a chance on Blake, Watson, Ridnour and Conley.

How did you miss BK and Jeff McInnis!?!?

[fluffernutter]

Calderon would be great, but is apparantly untouchable. They know what they have up there.
Duhon. Duhon? Go ask the Chicago board what they think about Duhon. We could get him for a bag of pretzels. There is a reason for that. He's been horrible lately. Horrible. That is not going to help us at all. Conley's going to be tough to get. I don't know about AD or AJ.

The market is tight for starting PG's.

I fear we would have to give up a lot. Or get hella lucky somehow.