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[Yahoo! Sports] Calderon or Ford as the Raps starting PG?

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Post#41 » by Franchise_411 » Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:15 am

Don't_Reach wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I would take Paul or Williams for Jose or TJ...to think of it, i'd take Paul or Willams for a package of both. Deron kills both of them when we play against Utah. And to say he's not a good fit for the Raptors is nonsense. Have you seen him run the pick n' roll? The guy is bigger Forderon.


I think you quoted the wrong guy ... it was jonny three time that said Deron wouldn't be a good fit ... if there was a package on the table (alternate world) Dwight Howard and Chris Paul being offered for Chris Bosh and TJ Ford ... I don't care how big a fan I am of Bosh and Ford, I'm personally packing their suitcases for them ... That being said, Deron Williams is a huge upgrade over Calderon, I can't name one GM in the league that wouldn't pull the trigger on that deal ...
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Post#42 » by Don't_Reach » Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:15 am

Franchise_411 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I was going to highlight everything I disagreed with, but I only agree with one thing, that's the point about Jose's character ... me personally, I want to see a championship banner raised in Toronto, and I'd say the Raptors would be a lot closer to raising one in the ACC if Deron was running the point ... Jose a proven winner? he hasn't won anything in the NBA so far ... a cheerleader? that's what we have the dance pack for ... trading for a 19 and 9 guy is hardly a risk ... Finally, Deron is a better defender, if you play under a Jerry Sloan system, you better be able to play defense ...


Add to that...you ain't gotta worry about doubling Deron's man in the post like wha Kidd did to us last year...Man, someone wasn't watching the Jazz's run in the playoff last season
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Post#43 » by Don't_Reach » Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:19 am

Franchise_411 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I think you quoted the wrong guy ... it was jonny three time that said Deron wouldn't be a good fit ... if there was a package on the table (alternate world) Dwight Howard and Chris Paul being offered for Chris Bosh and TJ Ford ... I don't care how big a fan I am of Bosh and Ford, I'm personally packing their suitcases for them ... That being said, Deron Williams is a huge upgrade over Calderon, I can't name one GM in the league that wouldn't pull the trigger on that deal ...


I kno...i was just answering your other question...which i totally agree with. Because If Williams was in the East. He'd be in the All-Star game
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Post#44 » by jonny three time » Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:23 am

I understand you guys thinking that way. But I've never been a stats guy, don't play fantasy basketball, and make judgements from what I see on the court. Having said that, I think Deron is a better defender and better scorer. But Calderon is the better passer and has more intangables. In my opinion the scoring advantage might actually end up holding the team back as our teams PG shouldn't score more than 15 a game if everything is functioning the way it should. So Derons advantage in being better at creating his own shot isn't that much of an advantage at all. Deron is the mroe skilled player, but again not by much.

Any trade you make puts your team at risk of having chemistry issues, both on and off the court. So basically anytime you trade a player who is proven to be a great fit where he is, you run a risk in doing so. To me it just isn't worth the risk. Thats the reason why you rarely see winning teams trade their key players to other winning teams for their key players.
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Post#45 » by Franchise_411 » Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:24 am

Don't_Reach wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I kno...i was just answering your other question...which i totally agree with. Because If Williams was in the East. He'd be in the All-Star game


No doubt. He would've beat out Billups for the 2nd PG spot and Jose's name woudn't have been brought up once ... I've been sayin' it, in the Western Conference no matter how well the PG's play, someone's getting screwed out of an all-star spot (Nash, Paul, Deron and Parker) ... That is an even bigger injustice than Jose not getting selected ...
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Post#46 » by Franchise_411 » Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:38 am

jonny three time wrote:I understand you guys thinking that way. But I've never been a stats guy, don't play fantasy basketball, and make judgements from what I see on the court. Having said that, I think Deron is a better defender and better scorer. But Calderon is the better passer and has more intangables. In my opinion the scoring advantage might actually end up holding the team back as our teams PG shouldn't score more than 15 a game if everything is functioning the way it should. So Derons advantage in being better at creating his own shot isn't that much of an advantage at all. Deron is the mroe skilled player, but again not by much.

Any trade you make puts your team at risk of having chemistry issues, both on and off the court. So basically anytime you trade a player who is proven to be a great fit where he is, you run a risk in doing so. To me it just isn't worth the risk. Thats the reason why you rarely see winning teams trade their key players to other winning teams for their key players.


ok ... no stats, just observation ... I think what dont reach and myself saw was that Deron led his team to the conference finals ... Jose hasn't accomplished anything in the NBA ... I think a PG of Deron's track record would know how to play with the Raptors ... you say Deron is a better defender and scorer, I agree, it's no contest ... There's one intangable that you haven't specifically mentioned, the ability to break your defender down and attract the double team ... By observation, I don't recall one time Jose has commanded the double team, I've seen pressure D at most from the opposition, but never a double team ... having NBA league pass, I've watched quite a few Utah games, Deron commands that double team regularly, thus creating open looks for his teammates ...
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Post#47 » by Don't_Reach » Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:51 am

Franchise_411 wrote:you say Deron is a better defender and scorer, I agree, it's no contest ... There's one intangable that you haven't specifically mentioned, the ability to break your defender down and attract the double team ...


Exact reason why i say Deron is a Calderon and Ford put together on the offense...Because he's just as good as Calderon on the Pick n' roll and he can break his man down and get to the paint at will like TJ. In addition, his solidly built, 6"3 and finishes strong in the paint.

There's a reason why Deron and Paul are in the same breath...just as Kobe and LeBron are...Eventhought their games are not similair they're all effective just as well as their counterparts...Just for all those homers, What Bosh is to LeBron/Kobe...Jose/TJ are to Paul/Deron...Don't get me wrong tho, i'm still a Raptors fan, but offer me Deron over Forderon and I shall use my basketball IQ...FYI, Deron is only 23 :nonono:

This is wha Franchise was talkin' about...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRZntFqc ... re=related
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Post#48 » by mickie » Wed Feb 6, 2008 1:33 pm

those who say TJ should start w/o proving himself first are fooling themselves. i'm not saying he's not good enough nor he's not better than Jose, the team needs to know he's 100% physically and mentally. what makes you think that if we send back Jose to the bench that his play won't suffer? and i disagree about the comment "no one should loose their starting position due to injury". THE TEAM COMES FIRST, that's all i can say. if his ego is too big to come off the bench then i guess he's not a team player then (i honestly think TJ is and that he'll be ok coming off the bench till he gets his rythm back.)
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Post#49 » by Franchise_411 » Wed Feb 6, 2008 1:56 pm

Don't_Reach wrote:
This is wha Franchise was talkin' about...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRZntFqc ... re=related


I was at that game, I was LMFAO at Calderon when that happened ...
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Post#50 » by Dub_P » Wed Feb 6, 2008 2:34 pm

mini wrote:And Bargnani is a bust...discuss.

We might as well get it all going in one thread.


Let's talk about where it went wrong with Babs too!
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Post#51 » by Reignman » Wed Feb 6, 2008 3:47 pm

What's funny is that on Monday when I watched the game, not once did I think of who should start, but rather just enjoyed seeing all our players healthy.

Then I come on this board and people shoot off their mouth about one player being significantly better than the other, which first of all is complete BS. Now I'm all amped about this, so I gotta defend TJ.

If TJ even gets back to 80% of pre-injury form, he'll be back in the starting lineup. He's the second best player on this team, and the only player that doesn't let our team wilt away when the jumpers aren't falling. CB4 doesn't get to do that often because when the jumpers aren't falling teams throw the instant double on his ass. Without TJ in the starting lineup, our chance of getting out of the 1st round are close to nil.

However, I'm not too concerned, TJ will be back in the starting lineup by March and this board will go back to the usual TJ hating for everything Raptor related.
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Post#52 » by Raptors90102 » Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:20 pm

Reignman wrote:What's funny is that on Monday when I watched the game, not once did I think of who should start, but rather just enjoyed seeing all our players healthy.

Then I come on this board and people shoot off their mouth about one player being significantly better than the other, which first of all is complete BS. Now I'm all amped about this, so I gotta defend TJ.

If TJ even gets back to 80% of pre-injury form, he'll be back in the starting lineup. He's the second best player on this team, and the only player that doesn't let our team wilt away when the jumpers aren't falling. CB4 doesn't get to do that often because when the jumpers aren't falling teams throw the instant double on his ass. Without TJ in the starting lineup, our chance of getting out of the 1st round are close to nil.

However, I'm not too concerned, TJ will be back in the starting lineup by March and this board will go back to the usual TJ hating for everything Raptor related.


And I see that you have Jose hating even before March has arrived. Good for you.
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Post#53 » by Scott Carefoot » Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:36 pm

asif9t9 wrote:Umm, that writer is a nobody.


Skeets co-hosts the best basketball podcast around, The Basketball Jones and has written for Deadspin and now Yahoo. He's also a funny mofo. Just because you haven't heard of him, that doesn't mean he's a nobody.
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Post#54 » by KG1585 » Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:43 pm

If TJ even gets back to 80% of pre-injury form, he'll be back in the starting lineup. He's the second best player on this team, and the only player that doesn't let our team wilt away when the jumpers aren't falling. CB4 doesn't get to do that often because when the jumpers aren't falling teams throw the instant double on his ass. Without TJ in the starting lineup, our chance of getting out of the 1st round are close to nil.


Sam Mitchell was on the morning show on fan 590. He said that he likes the chemistry of the first unit, and he doesn't want to ruin it, by making a change. So I think he was basically hinting that Jose is going to be starting.
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Post#55 » by Hank_Scorpio » Wed Feb 6, 2008 6:10 pm

There is no question this is a tough situation right now.

Calderon has simply been playing out of his mind. In fact, he has been playing so well, that he may have just priced himself out of range for the Raptors to be able to keep him and Ford.

Not only that, but Ford now has the spectre of this injury hanging over him - and while I am optimistic that things will be different going forward, I can still accept that there appear to be some risks there.

Nevertheless, I have always been a TJ Ford backer and I continue to be one. I think he is the right guy to start for this franchise going forward and I think we are about to see him really blossom into a more mature and effective player. I would love to see Calderon take a full MLE offer to be the backup, but if I had to choose which one to leave, it would be Jose - and that is a VERY tough decision, because I think Jose is a great, great player.
Postbro1 wrote:Obama is right on this.
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Post#56 » by KG1585 » Wed Feb 6, 2008 6:44 pm

Nevertheless, I have always been a TJ Ford backer and I continue to be one. I think he is the right guy to start for this franchise going forward and I think we are about to see him really blossom into a more mature and effective player. I would love to see Calderon take a full MLE offer to be the backup, but if I had to choose which one to leave, it would be Jose - and that is a VERY tough decision, because I think Jose is a great, great player.


I would take TJ over Jose in a heartbeat, but because of TJ's injury, I would take Jose. You can just never know with TJ, I hope he has a long career ahead of him, but the fact remains he could get injured again next year and retire. The Raps will be doomed, if that happens and they don't have Jose.
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Post#57 » by AbC? » Wed Feb 6, 2008 6:56 pm

Don't_Reach wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
This is wha Franchise was talkin' about...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRZntFqc ... re=related


Funny thing is Deron probably could have done the exact same thing without those moves.

I love Calderon but his defense is just... :banghead:
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Post#58 » by Reignman » Wed Feb 6, 2008 7:59 pm

Raptors90102 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



And I see that you have Jose hating even before March has arrived. Good for you.


Where'd I hate on Jose?

I think TJ is our second best player, I never said anything about Jose. In fact, I've been saying the difference between the 2 is minimal at best. I say TJ gets the starting role back based on style of play, especially for the playoffs, where our offence will need to be more dynamic. TJ is able to do things that no one else is able to do.

But coming from a super biased Jose jock-rider, I can see how you would miss that.
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Post#59 » by Fenris-77 » Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:01 pm

Hank_Scorpio wrote:Nevertheless, I have always been a TJ Ford backer and I continue to be one. I think he is the right guy to start for this franchise going forward and I think we are about to see him really blossom into a more mature and effective player. I would love to see Calderon take a full MLE offer to be the backup, but if I had to choose which one to leave, it would be Jose - and that is a VERY tough decision, because I think Jose is a great, great player.

Really, the only way I'd even be tempted to disagree with you is if some team made the Raps a real sweetheart offer for TJ that included an seriously upgraded wing player as part of the package. Other than that the relative value of the two guards, and the real and pressing need for upgraded pieces, makes TJ the solid business choice to run the point.

I know everyone has their favourite out of the two, and I am really not interested in reviving any kind of TJ-Jose skill debate, but I really think it's going to be primarily a business decision that decides our starter moving forward. And in that light TJ seems like the guy. That's one perspective anyway.
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Post#60 » by LLJ » Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:24 pm

Like TJ better than Jose from a potential standpoint.

However, TJ is a walking accident waiting to happen. Gotta go with keeping Jose.

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