Keeping up with the Joneses

[JES12]

What is Eric Snow's playoff numbers?

[JapanAir21]

Pootie I don't think you see the point, we need dampier against those kind of teams more than you think. An offensive center would be nice yes, but not if it requites losing dampier, he's too important to the mavericks. If we were upgrading to a younger defensive center I'd understand, but we're not. Dampiers playoff numbers are flawed because he's been injured, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. He's doing a fine job defensively, and so what if dirk is doubled, I think the mavericks are used to it now, and he realizes that he can pass it out rather then trying to create his own shot or just chucking it up. We don't need 5 offensive players on the court at once (unless our center is both offensive/defensive), but those are hard to come by in this league. Dampier isn't the best center in the l but he's still very important to this team, maybe most so behind dirk/devin/josh.

[dirkforpres]

If we need another center, we would sign Pavel Podkolzin!!!!!!!!!!!

[your_dallas_mavericks]

P-Pod, I want to be like P-Pod!

P-Pod's my hero!

If you're in trouble, P-Pod can save the day!

Okay, I'll stop now LOL!

[itsgotime]

Z doesn't bring all the intangibles that Damp does that's for sure. However he does bring tangibles MUCH better than Damp. Z is also not a defensive liability. He may not be focused on the defensive side, but that can change up with coaching.

Z would highly improve our O though. We would finally have a really good low post presence. A scorer and rebounder. It is an upgrade at the C spot IMO (and any upgrade at the C spot is a huge upgrade overall) with a huge downgrade at the backup PG spot (not as important to us). It allows us to do what we've been wanting to do on offense for a while as fans and that is to see what the inside outside game looks like with Dirk. Dirk would have many more open outside shots (3 pointers too).

I'm convinced that this is the type of shakeup/upgrade that would get us going as a team and solidify us as a group. I'm all for it if Cle is.

For Cle, I'm not sure it's all about the defense with Damp (not discrediting Damp's defense because with most Mavs fans they know Damps defensive value). Lebron, with Damp, would know how it is to get wide open because of a good strong pick. That is one thing Damp knows well, and is very good at. Dirk has said on multiple occasions that he enjoys the space created from Damp. The one man double pick. Playing the pick and roll with Damp would help Damp's scoring on the O end too.

[JapanAir21]

What exactly is wrong with our offense? I don't quite see how upgrading offensively would do. He's a post player yes but a lot of his points come outside as well. Offense have never been a problem for the mavericks, yes they don't score much in the post, but when was the last time we did? Defense is a better option in this case if were talking about big z. A lot of players in this league look good on paper because there's no real options, like players in seattle, minnesota, and other teams. I believe the same could be said for cleveland, lebron can't score all the cavs points by himself. Big z is the secondary scorer for the cavs but if we had him he'd probably be the fourth if not fifth. If we're going to get an offensive presence, get a big SG

[Pootie41]

The MAvs offense is fool's gold though. We look good in the regular seaosnw ehn teams aren't prepared for defending Dirk. But in the playoffs when teams are focused ond efending Dirk it is easy for them to take him out of the game because the Mavs don't have either thing Dirk needs.

* quality perimter shooters
* low post player

By getting a low post player we solve all those issues. Dirk becomes a better perimeter player. Z becomes a better post player because of Dirk.

Our perimeter shooting improves dramatically because Dikr is on the perimter rather than on the post and we have one less bad shooter on the perimeter.

And when Dirk posts up Z can shoot too.

If you don't have these things in the playoffs teams take Dirk out of the game. Then you end up with Josh or Terry or Stack trying to fill that void of the game winning offensiv eplayer.

It's like with the SPur sin the Finals. The Cavs took Duncna out of the game. Bu tthey ahve 2 guys good enough to win the game when the ball is taken out of Duncna's hands -- Parker and Ginobli. The Mavs don't. When Dirk is taken out of the game our guys stink. They look much better than they woud playign with Dirk, but it's not enough because they jsut aren't talented enough. They don't have the skills and abilities to do it consistently.

If you ahve Z then Z becomes the guy they have to take out in the post. And then Dikr is the guy with the ball who is in a position to win games. You saw the same thing with Shaq/Kobe and Shaq/Wade.

Teams took the ball out of Shaq's hands and this put it in Wade and Kobe's hands to win games. They could handle that.

Dirk is that kind of perimeter player. Dirk is a greta post player because bigs can't guard him on the perimter, but he's best oon the perimter. That's where he needs to be.

It's funny that Avery is always saying Terry shouldn' try to be Steve Nash -- to be himself. But then Avery is trying to make Dirk into Tim Duncan.

[JapanAir21]

Other than last season in the Playoffs, when has anyone been able to contain Dirk? Before the 04 season we just weren't good enough. 05 we lost to a top playoff caliber team, 06 we beat both the Suns and the Spurs, and would have won the Finals if it weren't for some whistles. Who stopped Dirk then? Dirk was the one who got things done for us. We now have reliability in Devin Harris and Josh Howard (at least in the first half). JET is a quality perimeter player, as is Jerry when he's healthy. If we need instant offense we go to Devin, who you have failed to even talk about during this whole thing, he's the key to us doing better, he's more important than Josh Howard at offense right now, just look at how we're doing without him, we were able to maintain things with Josh Howard out, but with Devin out is isn't that easy.

I don't think the Cavs exactly took Duncan out, it's more Ginobili and Parker just stepped their games up in the Finals. And, when Dirk is taken out we have Howard+Harris, they're shown they're more than capable of handling a game for us if Dirk is off.

Wade's a fluke, you put the ball in his hands he goes to the FT line. You can't compare Kobe and Wade.

[Pootie41]

Other than last season in the Playoffs, when has anyone been able to contain Dirk?

The Heat guarded Dirk the exact same way Nellie did. So did Jeff Van Gundy when we faced the Rockets. They took us to 7 games and almost beat us. The Suns would ahve done the same thing each time the Mavs faced them the only time they didn't was when amare was injured. It's not complex. All you have to do is put a small guy on Dirk. Which forcesAvery to put Dirk on the post because that's the only way Avery knows how to use Dirk. Then when Dirk is on the post double and triple him. Then the other mavs can't fill the role of primary scorer like Parker and Ginobli can or Kobe with Shaq or Wade with Shaq..

Wade's a fluke, you put the ball in his hands he goes to the FT line. You can't compare Kobe and Wade.

Dirk is on that level as a perimeter scorer though. Bigs have more trouble guarding Dirk on the peritmer than than guys Kobe and Wade's size have guarding them.

That is wasted if you force Dirk to post up. You are helping the opposing defense by doing that. we have to do that becasue our team is built so poorly.

[jwa1107]

Yeah, why don't you put up Damp's playoff numbers. He has the numbers of a backup center in the playoffs. He can't even stay on the floor in the playoffs because he fouls out in the first 5 minutes. Damp is both a defensive liability and an offensive liability. Especially against running teams.

2007 (which I remind you was Avery's choice not to play Damp)
Player G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Erick Dampier
5 games
7.6 mpg
67% FG
50% FT
1 ppg
3.4 rpg
0 bpg
.80 TOpg
1.8 PFpg

2006
Erick Dampier
19 games
23.9 mpg
54% FG
61% FT
5.0 ppg
6.7 rpg
1.26 bpg
0.63 TOpg
3.9 PFpg

2005
Erick Dampier
13 games
23.7 mpg
60% FG
40% FT
7.0 ppg
7.5 rpg
1.38 bpg
0.92 TOpg
4.20 PFpg


when he is logging 23 mpg he's not fouling out in the first 5 minutes...
not a liability defensively based on stats...

[Pootie41]

That's your opinion...

Check Damp's production in 2005 compared to the other centers in the playoffs that year. He has the production of a backup center. I did the research. Damp's stats are poor. And his stats don't even tell the story of how bad he is because he plays with Dirk. A decent center would be putting up monster numbers with Dirk.

[JapanAir21]

Who gives a crap about Dampiers STATS. He clogs the lane, he contests shots, he's not going to put up his numbers because that's not his JOB. If Avery ran plays for Dampier then his "stats" would be higher. You did research by showing his offensive stats aren't good, when he's not an offensive player? You're just not accepting the fact that Dampier is a hell of a lot more important to us then us losing two pieces would be.

Eric Snow is not a key piece by the way. You want to come up with an offer for an offensive AND defensive center? fine with me. But swapping out a defensive player AND a key role player in JET for a offensive player in the post isn't the answer.

Plus, The Cavs wouldn't even do that deal. Just because a player is valuable to another team doesn't mean he's valuable to the other.

And, mentioning the Spurs as only Parker+Ginobili+Duncan is silly, their entire team is good, from Bowen to Barry to Oberto to Bonner, they all are very good at what they do.

[Pootie41]

The great thing is that even if we trade Damp we still have Diop. So you have an offensive and defensvie center. I think you could even play Diop and center and Z at power forward and Dirk at Small forward because Z is such a good shooter.

[jwa1107]

in 2005 playoffs Damp was on a Nellie-built team with Dirk, Fin, Stack, Howard, JET, and KVH all averaging over 10 ppg - there are only so many touches to be had...

you're discounting the system he was in and the role he was asked to fill
he wasn't asked to be a scorer, he was there for defense and rebounding

[JapanAir21]

The great thing is that even if we trade Damp we still have Diop. So you have an offensive and defensvie center. I think you could even play Diop and center and Z at power forward and Dirk at Small forward because Z is such a good shooter.

I give up

[JES12]

This thread is still stupid.

On a team full of jumpshooters, you don't need a jumpshooting cener. Big Z is not as bad as Okur, Murphy, Blount, but he's on the same level as Brad Miller if you take away Miller's picks and Miller's more agile body (compared to Big Z). In fact, I'd rather trade for Brad Miller than Big Z.

If you want to "shake things up" do the 1 for 1 swap as there is not a snowball's chance in hell we add better talent (Terry) and absorb contracts of people who can't play (Snow) to "shake things up."



I am so tired of all the cliches like "put us over the top" in downgrade propsals and tired of all the people who live and dye by stats. Those people need to go back & play NBA Live.

[JES12]

The great thing is that even if we trade Damp we still have Diop. So you have an offensive and defensvie center. I think you could even play Diop and center and Z at power forward and Dirk at Small forward because Z is such a good shooter.

Don't say "WE" as you are not a Maverick fan if you would do this trade, nor would you mention Dirk and SF in the same sentence without "not" inbetween them.

[FGump]

-= original quote snipped =-

Don't say "WE" as you are not a Maverick fan if you would do this trade, nor would you mention Dirk and SF in the same sentence without "not" inbetween them.

He's not a Mavs fan period. Never has been. He's a long-time anti-Mavs troll who comes back to this board with a new name every so often until he gets banned again.

Jes, I can't recall all the aliases (they usually had 41 in them), but I'm sure the longtimers here know who he is. If he starts lathering up all the threads with too much crap (usually extremely repetitive and illogical anti-Damp, Avery-hates-Dirk, Mavs-cant-win, Nellie-invented-basketball, trade everyone but Dirk nonsense) the mods just need to be notified. He keeps sneaking back in with new names after being banned.

[JES12]

Ah, okay. Thx FGump!

[Pootie41]

On a team full of jumpshooters, you don't need a jumpshooting center.

Big Z isn't just a jumpshooting center. His post game is as good as his jumper if not better. He's a true bigman. If he had a shooter like Dirk playing off him he would be an even better post player. And the mavs aren't a jumpshooting team. Anyone who watched the playoff last season should know the Mavs can't shoot jumpers to save their lives. That's how we tanked in the finals too. Missing wide open jumpers with Dirk posting up and getting doubled.