100 vs. 81

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Who's scoring performance was more impressive?

Wilt Chameberlain's
43
48%
Kobe Bryant's
47
52%
 
Total votes: 90

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Post#81 » by penbeast0 » Wed Feb 6, 2008 7:59 pm

tkb wrote:Do you think it's of importance than Kobe was more efficient than Wilt from every spot on the floor (from 1, 2 and 3) and had 46% less possessions to work with in their respective games or is it just the figure 100 (and the name Wilt) that matters?


The OP asked about "impressive" . . . Kobe's performance was in many ways more impressive like Barry Bonds HR records are more impressive than Babe Ruth's but (a) Wilt's was first and that, not who did it, is a factor in how impressive it was -- Ruth's 60 impressed more people than Maris's 61 despite a bigger raw number and (b) Wilt's raw number is not only considerably bigger but 100 is sort of a magic number, like recording a triple double with 10/10/10 instead of 16/12/8 game that might be much more statistically difficult.

It's a subjective thread and some good arguments (and stupid ones) both ways.
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Wilt 

Post#82 » by writerman » Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:09 pm

Wilt changed his game three times in his career to benefit his team.

Kobe hasn't done that--wouldn't even think of doing that--because Kobe is for Kobe and Kobe alone.

Anyone who thinks Wilt had it easier is just plain witless--"easier" with 3-4 players literally hanging on him every time he went to the hoop? Puh-leeze! Gimme a damned break!

I'm sure there are some equally witless Laker fans here who will tell you that Kobe is just a better player than Wilt was. Better than a guy who compiled the stats he had against guys like Russell, Thurmond, Bellamy, Reed, Unseld, Beaty, and someone named Jabbar. A guy who once averaged 50 a game. A guy who once averaged 27 boards a game. A guy who led the league in assists when assists weren't passed out like penny candy the way they are today. A guy who if blocks had been recorded would be light years ahead of anyone else on the all-time list.

Yeah, sure.

Any way you cut it, 100 points is still 19 more than Kobe's best. And Kobe, as was said, never even faced a double team against a terrible defensive clug until late in the game, while Wilt had, as I said before, three or four guys literally draped all over him for much of the 100 point game.

But there are some people who will buy any line of crap if it's repeated often enough...
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Post#83 » by NetsForce » Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:23 pm

tkb wrote:Do you think it's of importance than Kobe was more efficient than Wilt from every spot on the floor (from 1, 2 and 3) and had 46% less possessions to work with in their respective games


Damn dawg...
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Re: Wilt 

Post#84 » by SDChargers#1 » Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:25 pm

writerman wrote:Wilt changed his game three times in his career to benefit his team.

Kobe hasn't done that--wouldn't even think of doing that--because Kobe is for Kobe and Kobe alone.


HAHAHA, you are so wrong it isn't even funny.

What did Kobe do when Shaq was on the team? He deferred to him and they won 3 championships.
What did Kobe do when he was sole offensive player on his team? He raised his scoring average and single handedly led his team to the playoffs.
What is Kobe doing this year now that he has good teammates again? Playing better defense and taking almost 3 shots less a game.
What did Kobe do in the FIBA tourny this year surrounded by great players? Focused on being the defensive stopper of the team.

You are WRONG. Lol, Kobe doesn't change his game. That is laughable.
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Re: Wilt 

Post#85 » by tkb » Wed Feb 6, 2008 9:03 pm

writerman wrote:Wilt changed his game three times in his career to benefit his team.

Kobe hasn't done that--wouldn't even think of doing that--because Kobe is for Kobe and Kobe alone.


Translation: I haven't watched Kobe play this season.

Wilt is obviously the greater and better player. There isn't a second of doubt about that IMO. Having said that I find the 81 point game more impressive than the 100 point game for a number of reasons (which I have already stated). That doesn't take anything away from Wilt tho. He was a freak of nature.

Is it necessary to try and bring down one player to make your own boy look good? Wilt was a great player. As is Kobe.
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Post#86 » by Jordan23Forever » Thu Feb 7, 2008 2:07 am

tkb wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Which performance do you find more impressive between the two as far as scoring goes?


Probably Kobe's for some of the same reasons TrueLAFan mentioned. Just took more skill. Though I will add that it was absolutely the perfect storm for Kobe, and that if any one factor which conspired to produce the 81 point game (close game, allowing him to stay in; 20+ FTA; a team/coach that allowed him to take 46 shots; being incredibly hot; bad defensive team; no double teaming; being kept in to pad the final 8-10 points etc.).

What does that have to do with my post that you quoted, though? Do you not find it absurd that someone would suggest that Kobe would average 100 points back then? It's just a ridiculous comment.
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Post#87 » by bballcool34 » Thu Feb 7, 2008 2:10 am

Jordan23Forever wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

What does that have to do with my post that you quoted, though? Do you not find it absurd that someone would suggest that Kobe would average 100 points back then? It's just a ridiculous comment.


It's even more absurd that a person pays any attention to that comment and even gives it the time of day. It was a stupid statement by whoever said it, probably meant to provoke, so why even acknowledge it?
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Post#88 » by Number34 » Thu Feb 7, 2008 4:20 am

Simple maths says it all

100>81
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Post#89 » by penbeast0 » Thu Feb 7, 2008 9:26 pm

anyone ever find the "dunking free throws" rule? I want to see that one
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Post#90 » by kooldude » Fri Feb 8, 2008 2:40 am

penbeast0 wrote:anyone ever find the "dunking free throws" rule? I want to see that one


X2, I'm curious why the NBA didn't ban that rule even before Wilt; there had to be another athletic player that can dunk from the free throw line.
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Post#91 » by dm17415 » Fri Feb 8, 2008 6:15 am

100>81
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Post#92 » by Point forward » Fri Feb 8, 2008 9:18 am

kooldude wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



X2, I'm curious why the NBA didn't ban that rule even before Wilt; there had to be another athletic player that can dunk from the free throw line.


IIRC it was HOF member Jim "Kangaroo Kid" Pollard, a team mate of George Mikan and the original athletic forward.

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Post#93 » by carrottop12 » Sat Feb 9, 2008 2:01 am

I've never seen anyone else score 100. That's 19 points more then Kobe's score.

Not to mention the ignorance in the whole situation considering nobody here has seen Wilt.
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Exactly. 

Post#94 » by writerman » Sat Feb 9, 2008 2:20 am

Batronuj wrote:I've never seen anyone else score 100. That's 19 points more then Kobe's score.

Not to mention the ignorance in the whole situation considering nobody here has seen Wilt.


and no-one here who said Wilt had it easier than Kobe ever saw the kind of abuse he regularly took in the paint in an era when contact that would be flagrants today many times weren't even whistled. Officials back then routinely let opponents get away with murder against Wilt, and they still couldn't stop him.

Oh yeah, Kobe had it tougher getting his 81 than Wilt did getting 100. bull he did![/b]
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Post#95 » by tkb » Sat Feb 9, 2008 2:28 am

He was more efficient from every spot on the floor and had 46% less possessions to work with though. I know I sound like a broken record, but those 2 points cannot be ignored IMO.
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Post#96 » by compucomp » Sat Feb 9, 2008 8:57 am

The ridiculous results of this poll is the result of ignorant sports writers spreading the lie that the players of the 1960's were somehow inferior.

Hell take out the 7 treys and make them twos (no treys until 1980 or so), and you're already down to 74.

Citing Hollinger and Stern on why the 81 point game is better is like citing President Bush on why the Iraq War is a good idea.
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Post#97 » by TrueLAfan » Sat Feb 9, 2008 3:20 pm

penbeast0 wrote:anyone ever find the "dunking free throws" rule? I want to see that one


http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html

During his career, his dominance precipitated many rules changes. These rules changed included widening the lane, instituting offensive goaltending and revising rules governing inbounding the ball and shooting free throws (Chamberlain would leap with the ball from behind the foul line to deposit the ball in the basket).


I think the problem is that most of the websites discussing NBA rule changes use Robert Bradley's NPBR site, which has section titled Significant NBA Rule Changes. (My emphasis.) I think the NBA simply adopted the NCAA rule about free throws, which means part of this comes from the NCAA rule change that was made after Wilt's college coach Phog Allen bragging in 1956 that that Wilt would make every free throw. (From Wilt, 1962; cited source Pete Newell)

And I think there are a couple of periods where we just don't know where a rule change went into effect; There are a number listed at the end of the rules list with ??? for date implemented at the NPBR site. There were other fouls that were implemented because of Wilt where we don't know the date--the "away from the ball foul" is one. That was added so that opposing players wouldn't simply foul Wilt the minute the ball was inbounded in the final minutes of close games. And there's a 7 year gap between 1955 and 1962 where there were, apparently, no major rule changes. I find that very, very hard to believe. Anyway, I'm going to assume that the NBA knows it's own history well enough.

It was more than 20 years before the NBA got around to thinking Wilt's 100 point game was something worth remembering. For one thing, Wilt had scored 67, 65, and 61 points in the three games leading up to the 100 point game. He was tearing up the league in a way that no one has done, before or since. For another, contemporary news stories didn't think much of it. The AP story made the New York Times...on page 14. It was actually a half story; the other half of the Page 14 story was about the 43rd Annual Knights of Columbus track meet at the Garden. Columnists were far harsher than that. Two days after Wilt's 100 point game, Jimmy Powers, of the New York Daily News, wrote:

"Basketball is not prospering because most normal sized American youngsters or adults cannot identify themselves with the freakish stars. A boy can imagine he is a Babe Ruth, a Jack Dempsey, or a bob Cousy, for example, but he finds his imagination stretched to the breaking point trying to visualize himself as one of the giraffe types on display today. You just can't see a seven-foot basket stuffing monster to even the most gullible adolescent."


This was the sports editor of one of the most widely read newspapers in the country.

The NBA was so impressed that they did nothing to even acknowledge the game on its one-year anniversary. Or the five year anniversary. Or the tenth. Or the twentieth.

And, again, Wilt himself was not happy with the game for a long, long time. After the game, when his teammate At Attles came up to him in the locker room after the reporters were gone, Wilt was looking at the box score with a strained look on his face. "Big Fella, what's the matter?" Al asked.
"I never thought I would take 63 shots in a game."
"Yeah, but you made 36 of them." Attles smiled. "Hey, we'll take that any day of the week."
"Yeah, but...63 shots, Al."

When Kobe scored 81, it was an event in a way that, clearly, Chamberlain's game was not. And, to me, that's telling. We are now more focused on numerical greatness than ever before. And the game has slowed--which does not necessarily make it easier to score, just that you will have more chances if you have the style and stamina to do so. IMO, those changes make Kobe's game very slightly more impressive--or, perhaps to be more accurate, to be considered more impressive. Wilt's game was not considered a big deal when he did it--by himself, by most writers, by the NBA itself. Kobe had to fight through layers of the statistical worship we have built up and on in the past two or three decades. He did have to combat a slower game; he was more efficient. (Although Jack Kiser of the Philadelphia Daily News pointed out that Wilt made shots he would never ordinarily have taken, including "Long jumpers from 25-30 feet with two and three mend clinging to [him]"...so Wilt probably would have registered a few threes himself.) Kobe's game was analyzed and lionized, and there's pressure when you know your game will be looked at like that.

But Kobe thrives on that. He wants the recognition and attention. Wilt did too, but not in so overt a way on the basketball court. It showed in his response to his 100 point game, which was echoed by so many others for so long. Wilt gave his teammate At Attles, who had wanted Wilt to celebrate his accomplishment, a ball and a plaque with a photo of them, and wrote on it, "To Al, who did all the right things at the wrong time." Attles had gone 8 for 8 that night. Wilt made it clear that he owed his accomplishment to his teammates. I just don't see Kobe giving Chris Mihm or Lamar Odom something like that. I don't see Smush Parker saying what Al said when talking to a group of high school and college basketball players about Wilt's game.

"The single most important thing that you play for in a team sport--there's only one reason you play--to try to win. You need to do whatever is necessary. If you win, that means you all share in it."

I think Kobe's game is a slightly more impressive. I think both games are anomalies and are fairly worthless from a statistical analysis point of view. But I think they say a lot about what we want out of basketball players, now and in the past. Wilt thought that a game as out of line as his 100 point game was not particularly good for him, the game, or his teammates. Kobe's game was an anomaly too...one that garnered him attention and personal accolades from fans. I am not sure we have moved forward in appreciating or understanding basketball.
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Post#98 » by Bgil » Sat Feb 9, 2008 9:53 pm

Jordan23Forever wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Probably Kobe's for some of the same reasons TrueLAFan mentioned. Just took more skill. Though I will add that it was absolutely the perfect storm for Kobe, and that if any one factor which conspired to produce the 81 point game (close game, allowing him to stay in; 20+ FTA; a team/coach that allowed him to take 46 shots; being incredibly hot; bad defensive team; no double teaming; being kept in to pad the final 8-10 points etc.).


Close game? They were down by 19 or so.
Allowing him to stay in? A month prior he had 62 in 3 against Dallas which is more than he had against the Raptors.
46 shots? If he hadn't taken all those shots they probably would have been blown out.
Bad team? Again, he scored more against Dallas through three... and he's done 50+ in 3 several times against various teams.
No double teaming... bull.
20ft's? Wade needed that many just to hit 35ppg against Dallas. A lot of other players have had about 20 ft's and never even sniffed 81.
bad defensive team... go look at who was defending him that day or in dallas or in Memphis or Denver or Utah when he went off. It really doesn't matter who the defender is when he gets going.

Padding? Wilt and his team padded for the ENTIRE GAME! The whole point was to get Wilt 100.

81>100 because it was in the modern era against far superior talent.
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Post#99 » by TrueLAfan » Sat Feb 9, 2008 10:26 pm

Bgil wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Padding? Wilt and his team padded for the ENTIRE GAME! The whole point was to get Wilt 100.

81>100 because it was in the modern era against far superior talent.


Well, for starters, I don't know if I'd call the January 2006 Raptors team "talent."

The idea that Wilt and his team were padding for the entire game is ludicrous. Wilt had 41 and 14 at halftime. It was seventh time that season that he had had over 35 at the half. Like I keep saying, the game wasn't unusual for Wilt at the time. (The weird thing was the freethrowing; he was 13-14 in the first two quarters.) It was also an 11 point game at halftime; hardly a blowout. The Knicks were still reasonably close (down by 12) with two minutes left in the third, but Wilt scored 9 in the final two minutes to give him 28 for the quarter and 69 for the game. According to Tom Meschery, the Sixers really began to focus exclusively on getting Wilt points in the final ten minutes, when he had 75--not before then. There's no reason to think otherwise. The guy had averaged 63 a game in his three previous games. He had four other games of 70+ that season.
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