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Keeping up with the Joneses

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Post#41 » by JapanAir21 » Fri Feb 8, 2008 3:42 am

Pootie41 wrote:
On a team full of jumpshooters, you don't need a jumpshooting center.


Big Z isn't just a jumpshooting center. His post game is as good as his jumper if not better. He's a true bigman. If he had a shooter like Dirk playing off him he would be an even better post player. And the mavs aren't a jumpshooting team. Anyone who watched the playoff last season should know the Mavs can't shoot jumpers to save their lives. That's how we tanked in the finals too. Missing wide open jumpers with Dirk posting up and getting doubled.


Big Z is a true bigman?! :lol:
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Post#42 » by Pootie41 » Fri Feb 8, 2008 3:54 am

itsgotime wrote:Z doesn't bring all the intangibles that Damp does that's for sure. However he does bring tangibles MUCH better than Damp. Z is also not a defensive liability. He may not be focused on the defensive side, but that can change up with coaching.

Z would highly improve our O though. We would finally have a really good low post presence. A scorer and rebounder. It is an upgrade at the C spot IMO (and any upgrade at the C spot is a huge upgrade overall) with a huge downgrade at the backup PG spot (not as important to us). It allows us to do what we've been wanting to do on offense for a while as fans and that is to see what the inside outside game looks like with Dirk. Dirk would have many more open outside shots (3 pointers too).

I'm convinced that this is the type of shakeup/upgrade that would get us going as a team and solidify us as a group. I'm all for it if Cle is.

For Cle, I'm not sure it's all about the defense with Damp (not discrediting Damp's defense because with most Mavs fans they know Damps defensive value). Lebron, with Damp, would know how it is to get wide open because of a good strong pick. That is one thing Damp knows well, and is very good at. Dirk has said on multiple occasions that he enjoys the space created from Damp. The one man double pick. Playing the pick and roll with Damp would help Damp's scoring on the O end too.


This is a great post. You know your stuff. It is truly refreshing to see someone that undertsands what is happening on the court. :D

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I know everyone is trying to be a good fan and be supportive of our team or even try to pretend we don't have weaknesses because they feel there is no way Cleveland would trade BigZ, but you never know. Who would have thought Memphis would give away Pau for nothing? We could get lucky.
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Post#43 » by JES12 » Fri Feb 8, 2008 5:05 am

Pootie41 wrote:This is a great post. You know your stuff. It is truly refreshing to see someone that undertsands what is happening on the court.
I don't think he saw the Terry / Snow swap in that trade because he called this an upgrade. He must be getting Terry confused with Hassell and Snow confused with Jones.

:nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono:
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Post#44 » by Pootie41 » Fri Feb 8, 2008 5:46 am

The reason the Terry/Snow part is so lopsided in the Cavs favor is because the Z for Damp part is so lopsided in the Mavs favor.
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Post#45 » by JES12 » Fri Feb 8, 2008 6:40 am

Pootie41 wrote:The reason the Terry/Snow part is so lopsided in the Cavs favor is because the Z for Damp part is so lopsided in the Mavs favor.
The difference between Dampier and Big Z is hardley an Eric Snow dump. Don't get me started on adding Terry.
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Post#46 » by Pootie41 » Fri Feb 8, 2008 7:00 am

The difference between Z and Dampier is immense. One is basketball player, a center, which there are none of in the NBA. Which is why they probably won't let him go. One isn't even a basketball player.

I would throw in a heck of a lot more than Terry for Z. Every player we have on the Mavs other than Dirk is completely interchangable with any other swing player in the NBA. Take Josh Howard. He is supposedly considered next to untradable according to Cuban. Yet Michael Finley was actually a better scorer than Josh playing with Dirk and we are paying Finley to play for the Spurs because he stunk so bad. I would trade Josh AND Devin to get Z on the Mavs. Z would be that much of a difference maker to how the Mavs operate. You can't function in the playoffs without a post player of any kind, and without jumpshooters. Neither Josh or Devin can post up or shoot consistently.
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Post#47 » by JapanAir21 » Fri Feb 8, 2008 7:48 am

You'd trade Devin and Josh for Big Z huh?

Good thing your name isn't Mark Cuban!

Your logic is completely thrown off, your making Big Z sound like Shaq 10 years ago.

How'd we get to the Finals without a "post player of any kind,"

What do you call Howard, JET, and Stackhouse? They can't possibly be jumpshooters can they? Josh certainly can't shoot consistently right? And Devin can't get 15-20 night in and night out, he's just not that good.

Stop posing, your a closet Cavs fan trying to get Josh/Devin. Lol.

Not only that, your overrating Big Z, yes he's probably the second best player on the Cavaliers, but the Cavs are HORRENDOUS without LeBron.

Josh is interchangeable with one person in the League, that's Marion, because they're games are completely alike, I agree, but players like that are hard as hell to find.

Big Z is interchangeable too, give me LaMarcus Aldridge, lol.

Devin is trash too though right? lol.
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Post#48 » by JES12 » Fri Feb 8, 2008 9:16 am

JapanAir21 wrote:You'd trade Devin and Josh for Big Z huh?

Good thing your name isn't Mark Cuban!

Your logic is completely thrown off, your making Big Z sound like Shaq 10 years ago.
Like FGump stated, he is an anti-mav troll trying to pick a fight. No one in their right mind (unless ther are in Cleveland) would trade Howard and Harris for the flat-footed stiff.

And you can't really say his logic is off if he has none. He said one is a basketball player, center and then said there are none in the NBA. Therefore, since Dampier and Big Z are both in the NBA, I have no clue who he is talking about.

All he is trying to do is provoke a response.
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Post#49 » by Pootie41 » Fri Feb 8, 2008 6:11 pm

I am not trying to provoke a response. I don't think any of the swingmen on the Mavs are worth a nickel. That's why we aren't a championship contender and why we can't make a trade for anyone. No one wants what we have because ther eis nothing special about our players outside of Dirk. This is why Cuban keeps saying "we like our team". Because he has no choice to like it. No one else will trade with us.

And that's also why fans try to prtend these players are so valuabler as well. Itr's all BS.

And if you think anyone who has a diferent opinion than yourself is trying to "provoke a response" you need helkp. That is a ridiculous comment anyway because the whole idea of a message board is to "provoke a response" that's why we all post on them isn't it? Or is it just to agree with each other all day?

"agreed"

"agreed"

If anyone is trying to provoke a response ina engative way it is you and several others who drink too much of Cuban's "koolaid".
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Post#50 » by Pootie41 » Fri Feb 8, 2008 6:16 pm

Your logic is completely thrown off, your making Big Z sound like Shaq 10 years ago.


So Devin and Josh are worth as much as Shaq ten years ago? lol

And you say I am crazy?

You just don't understand how Dirk's game works. Neither do a lot of Mavs fans, or Cuban for that matter. So don't feel too bad.
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Post#51 » by JES12 » Fri Feb 8, 2008 11:54 pm

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Post#52 » by Rand10 » Sat Feb 9, 2008 12:00 am

Devin and Josh for Big Z!

get it done Cubes :lol: :lol:
colangelo wrote:Nowitzki walk in with Maytricks and says welcome to horse team and championship time.
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Post#53 » by itsgotime » Sat Feb 9, 2008 12:51 am

JES12 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I don't think he saw the Terry / Snow swap in that trade because he called this an upgrade. He must be getting Terry confused with Hassell and Snow confused with Jones.

:nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono:


I did see the Terry part of the trade and to me Terry and Stack are players that are holding back a lot of what our depth should be. I believe that JET is a great player, I also believe that Avery relies on him (and Stack) more than he should. On our side of this trade, the upside comes from unjamming the minutes we have at the 2 spot currently. More of an addition by subtraction type thing.

As far as Z for Damp, the deal is swapping a mostly Defensive C for a good post scoring C with decent defensive ability too (two way center). We need offense coming from the post. We have many games where the offense boggs down because of all the attempts to drive then kick out 4-5 feet for a contested 3. Devin and JHo are the only ones who can get to the rim with consistancy. The rest dribble 3 times to the FT line and kick it out (that's not far enough in the lane to draw any defenders most of the time), that's why the 3's are contested or not even attempted.

JapanAir said:
What exactly is wrong with our offense? I don't quite see how upgrading offensively would do. He's a post player yes but a lot of his points come outside as well. Offense have never been a problem for the mavericks, yes they don't score much in the post, but when was the last time we did? Defense is a better option in this case if were talking about big z. A lot of players in this league look good on paper because there's no real options, like players in seattle, minnesota, and other teams. I believe the same could be said for cleveland, lebron can't score all the cavs points by himself. Big z is the secondary scorer for the cavs but if we had him he'd probably be the fourth if not fifth. If we're going to get an offensive presence, get a big SG


Z doesn't need to score as much as he does on the Cavs here and that's also good for him. That means he doesn't need to force a shot, what he does do is suck the defense toward the lane while Dirk and Josh set up at the 3 pt line. That's how a post player helps a team. If they don't sag off their man, then Z makes and takes an easy post move and puts it in the hole.

Also, yes this trade switches our team up quite a bit (we become less of a jumpshooting team and more of a traditional post up team). We stop living and dying with the three, and start playing more real traditional basketball. Still gonna be boring to watch (we are currently not as exciting to watch as we once were), but it wins championships (if that is your goal).

The switch out of Damp for Z lowers our defense, however the loss of JET at the PG and SG spot with replacements of Snow at PG and Hassell/George/Jones getting more minutes at the SG spot raises our defense too.

I don't value Damp as low at Pootie does. I believe Damp is great at what he is needed to do on this team. I think Z is good enough defensively to not be a liability, and he spaces out the offensive end well enough for us to get a really good shot.

I still believe we are a championship calibre team with no trades, because this team is that good at shooting jumpshots. We also now have a very good drive the lane guy in Devin. It's the little things though that help us out at this point.

To me this trade makes sense, I also can see why those of you would say it isn't worth it. To the extent that you are saying it, I might have to disagree. Even if it is a bad deal, I don't think it is as bad as some of you are making it out to be.
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Post#54 » by Pootie41 » Sat Feb 9, 2008 1:11 am

You make some excellent points, itsgotime.

And what you are saying about not devaluing Damp as much as myself is true. I really don't think Damp is that bad of a player IF he was on a conventional team playing with a conventional bigman other than Dirk. But Dirk is NOT a conventional bigman. So I look at it from the perspective of a GM that is building our team. And by that criteria Damp is AWFUL. But if Damp was playing with a guy like Jermaine O'neal or something he would be much better. And that team would be much better. But paired with Dirk I think it's a trainwreck. They hurt each other rather than helping in any way.

It's the same thing with the other role players around Dirk. Josh, Jet etc are decent players. But they don't complement Dikr at all. If you are going to post Dirk up you need consistent perimeter shooters to spread the floor for him. Our role players are terrible shooters. And they aren't great defenders either.

If Dirk was more of a domiannt conventional post defender this might not be a problem. Maybe the Mavs could be more of a defensive team like the Pistons. But even then I don't know if our role players are good enough defensively to play that style.

It's not the players fault. It's how the team is constructed more than anything.

Another problem we have is that when we go small and play Dirk at center we don't have a smallball power forward. Josh has to play small ball power forward and he is dramatically undersized. It was Josh that let us down in that department against the Warriors in the playofs. Dirk had no help on the glass. The Warriors even doubled and tripled him on the boards too and he got no help from his teammates. Artest could help there.

Also, I do think this team as currrently constructed COULD win a ONE championship if things broke just right and we got extremely lucky, but that's it. And I think the goal should be to try to have a domiannt team. Not just how to get lucky. Believe it or not Z would make this a dominant team. It's not so much that Z is great. It's just that he complements Dirk perfectly. And by doing that you allow Dirk to reach his full potential. Just like Nash going to the Suns. He had the ideal team around him to complement his skills.

Big Z would do the same for Dirk. Damp is doing the complete opposite. And the Mavs role players inability to hit open shots also does the same thing to Dirk.

Add this up and it's how you get the biggest upset in NBA history.
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Post#55 » by Archi-stu@BSU » Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:36 am

anyone for JO? :D
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Post#56 » by JES12 » Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:07 am

Archi-stu@BSU wrote:anyone for JO? :D
I'd go with JO way before I touch anything on Cleveland's roster, well, except Lebron, of course.

Problem is, what do you give up? Not the big 3. After that, mix and natch as you please.
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Post#57 » by Chubby Chaser » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:25 pm

First of all. You guys are smoking some serious stuff if you think there is anyway Cleveland would accept that trash of a deal.
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Post#58 » by Rand10 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:37 pm

Kobe D wrote:First of all. You guys are smoking some serious stuff if you think there is anyway Cleveland would accept that trash of a deal.


And second of all........?
colangelo wrote:Nowitzki walk in with Maytricks and says welcome to horse team and championship time.
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Post#59 » by JES12 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:44 pm

mavfan33 wrote:And second of all........?
Second of all, he's a troll on some reefer madness, so GTFO!
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Post#60 » by jwa1107 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:54 pm

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