State of the Jazz

[randomhero423]

I'm a Knick fan but I"m just wondering how confident are you in your team right now after seeing the trades with PHX and LA? Do you think your team needs to make a trade to compete with them and the other teams now? Who would you want?

I think Okur can really hurt you guys when facing up against guys like Shaq, Amare, Gasol, Bynum, Duncan, Ming.

I really think a guy like Jermaine O'Neal can help you guys out. Thoughts?

[bleu]

We have everything right now EXCEPT for a backup or possibly even starting big man who can play against the tough Centers in the west like Shaq, Pau, Duncan, and Yao, and who can come in and get rebounds when the team really needs them.

[HouseofBoozer]

My opinion is Memo can be that guy. He did it a bit against Duncan and Yao last year, and I think he can do it again, and keep his shooting touch. We keep talking about how memo is not a good fit. I think if we were to trade him, on the offensive end we would be hurt enormously. He spreads the floor with his three point shooting and he lets Boozer dominate the paint when he wants too. Plus has anyone seen Memo post people up lately and end it almost every time with either a foul or a layup? He's a big asset to this team, and we don't want to lose him.

[Ming Kong!]

I think we are not the clear #1 team in the league, but I think we can beat just about anybody in a seven game series, in large part to home court dominance, and our coach/team adjusts rather well I'd say on a game to game basis.

Anyways, besides the Spurs, and possibly the Lakers, I'm not very concerned about teams. I really would love to see the Jazz win a championship through these teams, cause it'd show me that the Jazz were able to beat anybody. In 10 games maybe my opinion changes on the Jazz, but right now, I'm fairly confident about this team.

[GP]

I'm a Knick fan but I"m just wondering how confident are you in your team right now after seeing the trades with PHX and LA? Do you think your team needs to make a trade to compete with them and the other teams now? Who would you want?

I think Okur can really hurt you guys when facing up against guys like Shaq, Amare, Gasol, Bynum, Duncan, Ming.

I really think a guy like Jermaine O'Neal can help you guys out. Thoughts?

I think you make a valid point, if the pacers were willing to do a okur for oneal trade, I think that is one trade the jazz would do pretty quickly. The interior defense for the Jazz is laughable. A big center who can play defense would, in my opinion, push the Jazz over the hump. Now the feasibility of getting an oneal, is minuscule, so this of course is hypothetical, however, I feel the jazz are one center away from being a solid contender.

[erudite23]

People under sell memo too much defensively. Sure, he has played like a matador at times this year, but since he's gotten his health back he's been pretty good, and everyone who really paid attention to the Jazz last year knows that his interior D against Yao and Duncan was as much a reason for our success as anything else during our big playoff run.

Right now, I would still like to see another defensive minded big man with some sort of movement ability (read: not a Collins twin) added to the mix to help out, preferably a guy that is both solid on the ball and a good help defender as a shot blocker.....but we all know those guys aren't exactly lying around on the waiver wire waiting to be picked up.

So, given that, I would love to see a guy in the Jeff Foster mold added to the team, but I also see backup PG as nearly as big a need as interior D. We all notice 'round here how when Jason Hart comes in, the offense comes to an immediate skreeching halt. That is a relatively minor nuissance right now....but in the playoffs, when every possession is magnified and the slightes imbalance either way can tip the scales, this will suddenly jump out of the TV screen at you. I am terrified of watching us go from 4 late in the 1st quarter, to 6 down early in the second in a game that is eventually decided by 3 points. Followed by 3 straight games of Deron Williams playing 48 minutes before seeing his ACL blown out of his knee and landing on mid-court late in game 7.

:shudder:

[jazzfan1971]

Okur's man on man defense is passable. I'm not sure that Jermaine O'Neal is a stopper on defense either. He is a shot blocker, but, I would guess most of those are on help defense.

[troy]

Utah will not win a title with the actual core. Utah is still a second tier team.
Offense wins game , and Utah's attack is great. Only it's defense that wins championships.
Utah is probably one of the best team in the regular season , but once the playoffs comes they will pay their lack of defense. No way they beat the Spurs in a seven game series this year.

7 of the last ten champions were a top 3 defense the year of the title , the other teams were 7th (Lakers 01/02) , 9th (Miami 05/06) and 21th (Lakers 00/01). And The Lakers were known to coast for the regular season , they were a way better defensive team in the playoffs.
So except Miami two years ago every champion was a top 3 defensive team.

Clearly the Jazz are not a top 3 team defensively. Far from it.
I don't know if they have a potential to become that. But i know for sure they won't with Okur next to Boozer.
Okur is not a good defensive player. His impact on Yao and Duncan is way overrated especially against the latter one.
Against Yao his size was indeed very useful , but Yao was hurt by the terrible job Van Gundy did coaching wise. The offense of the Rockets was awful in that series.
Against Duncan you all said he did a great job because he got one block and a couple of steal here and there but actually he got smoked by Duncan who had his best series in the playoffs : 21.8pts and 57.6% shooting.
Duncan did commit a lot of turnovers (4.40 !!) but that's more an indication of the good team defense.
Actually in the only game we win in that series (Duncan was awful ) , Memo played only 21 minutes !!
Moreover Okur help defense was completely invinsible in that series. I mean , ok Boozer couldn't keep notice of Oberto , but he is not the only guy guilty of the 10pts on 70% Fabrizio scored in that series .
Where was Memo when Ginobili killed us driving to the paint ? Apart from giving him and 1's he was useless.


We shouldn't get overconfident because we had a ten game win streak in the regular season. We're still a team that has a lot of improvements to make.
IN the playoffs our mediocre defense won't cut it.

[xstockholmsyndromex]

BRING BACK HOFFA!!!!

[carrottop12]

I actually think this team is in a pretty good position.

Everybody talks about getting a defensive big to win the championship but the truth is those guys are as follows: Duncan, Garnett, Shaq, and Yao.

None of those four guys are coming to the Jazz, so you make do with what you can.

Right now the Jazz have as good a team as anyone in the league, the offense is balanced and reliable, and the defense has been much improved.

When the playoffs come, everyone plays harder on defense, AK is playing much better this season then last, the addition of Korver has been huge and another year of experience is only going to help.

The Jazz don't need to make any more major moves to get anywhere this season, maybe see if Brian Skinner is available now that Phoenix has Shaq or look to move CJ and Collins for another back up C and hope it works out, but no reason to make a move just because.

[erudite23]

Utah will not win a title with the actual core. Utah is still a second tier team.
Offense wins game , and Utah's attack is great. Only it's defense that wins championships.
Utah is probably one of the best team in the regular season , but once the playoffs comes they will pay their lack of defense. No way they beat the Spurs in a seven game series this year.

7 of the last ten champions were a top 3 defense the year of the title , the other teams were 7th (Lakers 01/02) , 9th (Miami 05/06) and 21th (Lakers 00/01). And The Lakers were known to coast for the regular season , they were a way better defensive team in the playoffs.
So except Miami two years ago every champion was a top 3 defensive team.

Clearly the Jazz are not a top 3 team defensively. Far from it.
I don't know if they have a potential to become that. But i know for sure they won't with Okur next to Boozer.
Okur is not a good defensive player. His impact on Yao and Duncan is way overrated especially against the latter one.
Against Yao his size was indeed very useful , but Yao was hurt by the terrible job Van Gundy did coaching wise. The offense of the Rockets was awful in that series.
Against Duncan you all said he did a great job because he got one block and a couple of steal here and there but actually he got smoked by Duncan who had his best series in the playoffs : 21.8pts and 57.6% shooting.
Duncan did commit a lot of turnovers (4.40 !!) but that's more an indication of the good team defense.
Actually in the only game we win in that series (Duncan was awful ) , Memo played only 21 minutes !!
Moreover Okur help defense was completely invinsible in that series. I mean , ok Boozer couldn't keep notice of Oberto , but he is not the only guy guilty of the 10pts on 70% Fabrizio scored in that series .
Where was Memo when Ginobili killed us driving to the paint ? Apart from giving him and 1's he was useless.


We shouldn't get overconfident because we had a ten game win streak in the regular season. We're still a team that has a lot of improvements to make.
IN the playoffs our mediocre defense won't cut it.

You clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about in regard to last year's playoffs. WE WENT AS FAR AS WE DID BECAUSE OF OUR DEFENSE.

As tough as that San Antonio series was, our improved defensive play kept us alive. More than anything, our inability to get offensive production out of anyone except Boozer and Deron was what cost us.

If you watched any of those games, you would know that Memo himself was DIRECTLY responsible for most of Duncan's TOs, he was constantly poking the ball out, tipping balls, and he even blocked TD straight up on a few occasions...WITH HIS OFF HAND (most players are incapable of blocking shots with anything but their dominant hand). Memo was terrific defensively. In fact, it was actually our perimeter defense that killed us in the SA series more than anything, allowing them to bombs-away from long range.

Let me put it this way: if Memo plays as tough on defense as he did last year, while staying relatively close to his offensive numbers as well (certainly not a guarantee) then I give us as good a chance as any team in the West. AK certainly can make a big difference with his weak-side defense, and Memo is a capable on-ball defender when properly motivated. If those two things fall into place, we have the inside-out game offensively, the low post presence, the point guard play, the slashers, the perimeter defenders, the screen shooting and now the long distance shooting to beat any team, any time.

Would I like an interior defender? Yes, I would love one, but we have seen Memo perform up to snuff. Its not as good as having a Duncan, Howard, or KG inside to shut down the opposing team's best big man, but those guys don't exactly come cheap.

[Duiz]

Erudite hants off for his post. +1 on it

Really Memo does a fine job when he gets a Duncan or Ming to guard. He even is known on to the Suns as a Team Nemesis for his high scoring and rebounding against their team.

I think its funny that no one ever notices this, but the Jazz are the 2nd youngest team in the NBA right after the Trail Blazers. Suns, Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, Hornets, and other of the top tier teams. The Jazz has a team with these ages (I compiled in descending order by age):

31 year old Harpring (9th year)
29 year old Collins (6th year)
29 year old Hart (6th year)
28 year old Okur (5th year)
26 year old Boozer (5th year)
26 year old Kirilenko (6th year)
26 year old Korver (4th year)
24 year old Price (2nd year)
23 year old Williams (2nd year)
23 year old Almond (Rookie)
23 year old Millsap (Sophomore)
22 year old Brewer (Sophomore)
21 year old Fesenko (Rookie)
20 year old Miles (2nd year)

I believe together in a stat we averaged about 24 years of age, tied with Seattle but still younger than Seattle. The spurs have an average of 30 year old squad.

San Antonio starting lineup:
33 year old Oberto (2nd year)
31 year old Duncan (10th year)
36 year old Bowen (11th year)
34 year old Findley (12th year)
25 year old Parker (6th year)

6th man: 30 year old Ginobli (5th year)

Phoenix starting lineup:
35 year old O'Neal (15th year)
25 year old Stoudamire (5th year)
35 year old Hill (12th year)
31 year old Bell (7th year)
34 year old Nash (11th year)

6th man: 25 year old Barbosa (4th year)

Who dearly scares me and I think will be our toughest competition in the long run...

Los Angeles Lakers starting lineup:
20 year old Bynum (15th year)
28 year old Gasol (6th year)
30 year old Odom (8th year)
29 year old Bryant (11th year)
33 year old Nash (11th year)

6th man: 27 year old Walton (4th year)

We are in a pretty good position if you ask me. Our players are about to start to enter their prime and they are already considered a contender. Hats off to Sloan and the talented team assemble by KoC.

[troy]

You clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about in regard to last year's playoffs.

erudite i generally find your post very interesting , but this time your completely wrong.

WE WENT AS FAR AS WE DID BECAUSE OF OUR DEFENSE.

As tough as that San Antonio series was, our improved defensive play kept us alive.

Well actually you are right on your first sentence , if we didn't went further it was because of our defense :p

More seriously where did you see us being "alive" in that series. We were eaten apart by San Antonio's offense.
I think you don't recall the series that well. I've got the whole series on my hardrive and clearly you coulnd't be more incorrect if you think our defense "kept us alive in that series" (just repeating that made me chuckle)

FACTS :

- San Antonio scored 99.2 pts on 49.3% (and the effective field goal percentage may have been historic because SA shot 42% from deep (!!!) ). The assist to turnover ratio was also great : 1.35 .
This was by far the EASIEST round offensively for the Spurs.
They completely destroyed us , it was over at the half in the three games in SA. It was a spanking.
- On the other end our offense was more than decent against San Antonio. Maybe Boozer and Deron were alone , but they were also unstoppable.
Denver and Cleveland were way worst against SA offensively.
- 1st example : In the first game of the series we scored 38 pts in the 4th quarter with Deron Williams on fire. Still we couldn't buy a defensive stop on the other end (30pts for SA )so it was useless.
- 2nd example : In the pivotal game 4 , the shots weren't falling anymore for Deron and Boozer in the 4th . Still there's no excuse for letting Ginobili MURDER us every time down the floor ! He pissed on our defense in that 4th quarter.
- Memeth Okur : Watch the series again , you're clueless here. First of all Duncan scored 22tps on 58% from the field : If that is some terrific defense by Okur , then what must we say about Denver's defense or Cleveland defense ? "Legendary" ?
Like many posters you have only memorized "the block straight up" and the couple of impressive steals Memo had over the series.
But you don't remember that in the only two games Duncan struggled offensively (the two games in SLC) , Deron and Fisher did a great job in the help defense sector ?
In the third game they totaled 6 steals. In the 4th game they had 7 steals.
That was the main reason for Duncan's struggle in those game.
"Okur directly responsible for most of Duncan's TOs , he was constantly poking the ball out , etc.." - ---> Ahahahaha , yeah right. Watch the series again , because i've watch the game 3 and 4 almost five times each.

By the way you say that the weakness in our defense was the perimeter defense , well if our guards didn't have to double on Duncan at every possession maybe the Spurs wouldn't have catch fire like that don't you think ? Once more , it's a proof of Okur's liability for this team.

You all think Memo was GREAT against Duncan because he surprised you a couple of time . Yeah he did play better defense than you thought he could. Still , he was sub par and he got OWNED totally by Duncan , more than all the other players Duncan met in those playoffs (that includes Nene , Amare and Drew Gooden).

[erudite23]

Listen, lets be clear on something. When it comes to great scorers (of which I would say Duncan clearly is one, while Yao hasn't earned that distinction to this point), how well they are doing most nights is far more dependent on how they are with their confidence and rhythm than on anything the D is doing. Sure, great D can do a little to limit things, but for the most part great players do what they do on offense.....now, the support players are usually a different story.

I'm not saying that Memo was freaking Hakeem Olajuwon during the playoffs, but his defense in the low post was absolutely not a weakness for the team. Boozer's lapses against Oberto hurt us faaar more than Memo's performance did. And if you want to really see why we allowed such a high % from the field, look no further than the seive we dared to call our perimeter D. Of all facets of our game defensively in that series, Memo's was quite possibly the best. It's hard to back up any assertion that someone was all that good at anything when you get out-classed as badly as we did in that series, but if I did-aside from the stellar play of Deron and, to a lesser extent, Boozer-it would be Memo's excellent post defense.

Obviously you are dug into your line of thinking, so I won't waste my breath trying to convince you, but there is no doubt in my mind that Memo--at last year's playoff form--is good enough for us to accomplish our goals.

[bleu]

I think its funny that no one ever notices this, but the Jazz are the 2nd youngest team in the NBA right after the Trail Blazers.

Fairly nice post, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. Everyone talks about the Jazz having the second youngest team in the league.

[Duiz]

Is it just me, or did this fella forgot Okur's clamp down on Yao Ming. I remember Ming's constipated face because he could not own the jazz. Moreover, Boozer dunking on Yao Ming as well helped a lot.

But remember that Duncan averaged plenty of turnovers during that series to the hands of Okur. Even got his shots blocked several times.

[SomeBunghole]

I realize that the Jazz are perhaps only one major deal away from being serious contenders(as opposed to a dark horse one they are right now), and I know that the D could be better, but I'm still very tentative about any sort of a trade for fear of messing up what has gone right so far.

This especially goes for the center position. Sure, I'd love us to get a defensive anchor in the middle who would not only neutralize the Duncans and Garnetts of this league, but chase away pesky guards who like to penetrate, but I just don't wanna give up Memo.

Here's a scary stat. The last Jazz center not named Mehmet to average 10+ PPG was Jeff Wilkins. Who? Exactly. We're talking 1983 here. And with all due respect to Mark Eaton, who god love him was the best center this team has ever seen, I like the fact that Memo can go off and score 20 on any given night. After all the Spencers, and Ostertags, and Collinses, I don't think I can take another guy who converts fewer dunks and layups than Memo does threes.

I would ride this team out until the summer. Then make deals if necessary.

[OC Jazzfan]

At this point, I don't think the Jazz should trade any of their relatively young, talented core (Deron, Booz, Memo, AK). The glaring needs are 1) A big, tough, presence in the middle and 2) A steady, reliable backup PG.

Given the glut of young undeveloped talent at SG/SF, I would think they could get a decent big who'll bang and put some bodies on the floor. We could argue till the cows come home about Memo's defense; On the one hand he had some pretty good showings in last year's playoffs. On the other hand, I'm apt to judge on the vast majority of games where he stands back and sissy slaps at an opponent going to the hoop.

The backup PG is a problem because they foolishly tied a noose around their neck named Jason Hart. I'm guessing the Jazz couldn't give him away let alone trade him. Hopefully Price will pan out because we're stuck with Fart for the duration of his deal.

If Price pans out and they can add a mean, defensive center I think the Jazz are ready to challenge anyone. Having said that, I think if anyone is expendable it's AK. He's much better this year, but still too inconsistent for my taste.

[troy]

First of all let me say that in my opinion Utah has no reason to make another trade this season .
Like i said in my previous post , the last weakness this team has is the lack of a big man inside that can take some place and defend.
I do not think the Jazz can get a guy that will step in the starting five and have a decisive impact for the rest of the season. Chemistry wise i do not think there is enough time to incorporate a new player in the starting five.
In my opinion Utah needs to wait for an offseason trade.

Now allow me to come back to erudite's previous post :

When it comes to great scorers (of which I would say Duncan clearly is one, while Yao hasn't earned that distinction to this point), how well they are doing most nights is far more dependent on how they are with their confidence and rhythm than on anything the D is doing.

WTF ?
I couldn't disagree more. You're saying you can't affect the offensive player performance ? My goodness , and i thought you were a good poster.
A great scorer can score 40 pts in a game over pretty much any defense on a good night. But over the course of a series he won't play better than his usual self if he is opposed to a good defense.
Against Okur , Duncan had more points per minute than his playoffs average (31pts per 48min vs 28pts per 48) and a way better percentage : 57.6% vs 50.7% and amazing differential of 6.9% !!!


But even worse than his individual defensive job , was his help defense during the series.
You can say Boozer was awful but that doesn't make Okur good either. Watch the games in San Antonio , Parker and Ginobili had layups all games long.
Ginobili and Parker had layups all series long and Memo only averaged what ? 1 blocks per game ? 3.60 fouls per game in only 30 minutes per game , and he still got only one blocks per game ?
His "standup blocks" he got against Duncan like you mentionned may have been the only blocks he got all series long. And that my friend is not good defense.
You can talk all you want about the Jazz's subpar perimeter defense in that series but the fact is San Antonio destroyed us in the point in the paint section.
Note : San antonio was only the 15th team in points in the paint rankings last year.
Other note : The only game where we dominatedSan ANtonio in that sector was the game we won and the game were Memo played only 21 minutes.

Now add to that Okur's absolutely pathetic showing in the rebounding area . He took only 4.6 rebounds in 30 minutes of play.
4.6 rebounds ! Do you believe that ? At least Boozer is a top rebounder.

All in all we have a Memeth Okur that :
- let Duncan shoot his best playoffs percentage over a series in 3 years.
- was inexistent in the help defense sector with a Spurs team that killed us all series long with points in the paint , averaging only 1 blocks per game.
- was truly ridiculous rebouding the ball
- played only 21 minutes in our best defensive game / only victory.


Despite all that you say that Okur was not a weakness defensively in that series. It's terrible to see that we're so used to see Okur's pathetic defense that we think this kind of impact is decent.
No it's not. It's awful !
(nowadd Okur's pathetic offense and you will not be surprised to learn that Okur was dead last in the +/- sector in last year's playoffs)

We won't win the championship with two interiors that do not even try to block shots.
If we had just one big man that defend the paint in that series then ... it would have been a series ! Our offense was good enough in that series to beat the Spurs , it was the defense that sucked.

[tsherkin]

Listen, lets be clear on something. When it comes to great scorers (of which I would say Duncan clearly is one, while Yao hasn't earned that distinction to this point),

Err? Yao's been a spectacular scorer for four years, now in his fifth year of being a very good scorer. He's astonishingly efficient, getting more aggressive each game and is exceedingly difficult to stop for most players. Where this comment comes from, I have no clue.

The only major separation on offense between Duncan and Yao in Duncan's favor actually comes from Duncan's passing, not his scoring ability. Besides, Duncan's greatness has never been in his scoring ability but in his balance between iso scoring, passing, rebounding and his defensive impact. He's The Big Fundamental, not Shaq. He's patient, he's cagey and experienced and he understands when and how to shift modes from scorer to passing hub, the ins-and-outs of the screen-and-roll... Duncan's role on offense isn't to be an elite scorer, it's to be a solid first option and to use his massive skill set to impact the team with his intangibles and other more tangible skills aside from scoring.

As an iso scorer, I'd actually be inclined to say that Chris Kaman is better (at least this year), maybe Boozer, Yao himself because of his FT shooting and ability to match volume but exceed Duncan's scoring average, there are a number of post scorers who are better than Duncan right now, Yao among them, that's never been Tim's calling card. It's always been that his only appreciable weakness is FT shooting and that he's well-balanced and broadly skilled in literally every other area of the game.

The Jazz right now certainly have the offense; they're ranked 2nd in the league in offensive efficiency and are a top-10 defense that's outrebounding its opponents. They have the second-best point differential in the conference and fourth-best in the league (behind, in reverse order, the Lakers, Pistons and Celtics).

They have a legit shot against pretty much any team in the league right now in a 7-game series. More rebounding would be better, surely, but you kind of have it.

You can play AK a little more, play Millsap a little more, get some minutes for Fesenko: it's hard to call because of ridiculously low sample size but I might point out that Fesenko's averaging 12.9 rebounds per 36 minutes in the 7 games he's played for Utah; again, the sample size is stunningly small but he's 7-foot or so and he's a solid rebounder and IIRC he's been doing well in the D-League for the last little while, no? 10 and 7 in about 25 minutes? That's still over 10 rebounds per 36 minutes, which is a fantastic rate.

The Jazz have no need for a trade, IMO; I think if anything, they just need to grow from within.

The addition of Korver helped them out on O and if they feel like it, they can try to develop Fesenko for a bit and see what he can bring to the squad because he's a big body in the middle who has some skills and isn't a total failure at the line (64% isn't good but it's far from Shaq-like, closer to Duncan territory, actually). Oh, and did I mention he's averaging a hair over 3.8 offensive boards per 36?

Widening the gap that Utah already has on the offensive glass (from where most of it's rebounding differential comes) will have the effective of lowering the other team's defensive rebounds and increasing the number of higher-percentage scoring opportunities the Jazz get each game, which can only positively benefit the team.

So yeah, work from within, don't bother with trades.

Jermaine O'neal is crap on offense, has long-term degenerative knee issues that are impeding his ability to play the kind of man defense of which he has traditionally been capable and he's not getting any younger. Why waste time on a high-priced individual that'd probably cost more than you should reasonably relinquish instead of working with the younger, taller, more post-oriented guy you have for cheap and already on your roster?

EDIT: Incidentally, I'm aware that he's not stunningly athletic and that he's more foul-prone than [insert any player you care to mention here] but you're talking about a reserve who's supposed to come in and offer some rebounding support when you're getting worked on the glass in the playoffs, it's all about mix-and-match, not long-term minutes.