How good was Adrian Dantley?

Point forward · Post #1 » by **Point forward** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:14 pm

How good was Adrian Dantley? I saw him play but was too small to actually analyse his game. But from what I read, Dantley was a DEADLY scoring G/F and probably the best Utah player before Stockalone came along: at his peak, Dantley was a 31/5/4 player. He won 2 scoring titles.

Q. "How do you stop Adrian Dantley?"
A. "Get a gun" (Dick Motta)

He was part of the Pistons team that just fell short of beating the big Celtics. But then, he was blacklisted by Isiah Thomas, was traded away to Dallas for Mark Aguirre, and so missed the championship. He was a cerebral, quiet player who maybe did not play much D or was not a natural leader, but if you pay Dirk $15m, prime Dantley was worth that, too.

6 All-Star Games, ROY, 2x All-NBA 2nd team, 2x scoring champion

I think he is one of the most unappreciated and best non HOF players ever.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lad01.html
http://www.nba.com/history/players/dantley_bio.html

kandiking · Post #2 » by **kandiking** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:16 pm

he would be a legend if he were in a bigger market.

Post #3 » by **GYBE** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:29 pm

One of my all-time favourites. I'm a little biased since he played at Notre Dame, but the lack of press/respect/whatever he gets is shameful.

bluestang302 · Post #4 » by **bluestang302** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:40 pm

Dantley was great. One of the most deadly and most efficient low-post scorers of all time. And he was closer to 6'3" than 6'5". He lived at the line.

It's amazing to look at his numbers and see that he only made 2 all-nba teams (2 2nds). He played in a LOADED era (for all positions - forwards especially). His best statistical years came for teams that achieved only moderate success, and he had a bad reputation. Tough to deal with, aloof, selfish, bogged down the team's offense, not a team player, only a scorer. All sorts of stuff.

It's a shame, really. He should be in the hall of fame, as he was better at what he did than just about anyone else ever. I think there is some truth to some of those problems he had, but they were overblown. Detroit was VERY close to winning a title with him as their best scorer.

He's one of the most statistically impressive players in history. 4 straight years of 30+ ppg, as well as a 28.0 year and a 29.8 year. Decent rebounding numbers, particularly early in his career. Usually averaged more than 3.5-4 assists a game. Insane FG%. Got to the free throw line enough to make Dwyane Wade blush.

Overall though, his place in history is lessened somewhat because of the amount of talent at the SF around that time. Dantley was clearly inferior to Bird and Dr J. I think Bernard King, at his short peak, was a better player. Then there's guys like Cummings, Aguirre, Vandewegue, English, Marques Johnson, and others. Dantley didn't stand out as much as his numbers might make one thing.

He should be in the hall of fame though.

Post #5 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:18 am

He was basically a superior offensive version of Charles Barkley without the rebounding . . . and I consider Barkley the greatest offensive PF of all time. Maybe the best individual scorer to ever play SF including Bird and Rick Barry.

That said, he was a mediocre rebounder, a poor defender, a player whose coaches tended to dislike him, and his game required him to have the ball in his hands to work his defenders with his nearly infinite variety of fakes and moves meaning that his teammates tended not to be rewarded for cutting or breaking free which bogged down offenses.

He was statistically the best of the class of great scoring SFs of his day, a slight step ahead of Mark Aquirre, more consistent than Bernard King but less so than Alex English, and clearly superior to Dominique Wilkins who is the favorite of the casual fan.

Point forward · Post #6 » by **Point forward** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:56 pm

Would you place Dantley above, on par, or below Vince Carter? (He is the G/F that seems to be --at least impact wise-- the most similar)

Post #7 » by **TheOUTLAW** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:09 pm

I wouldn't compare him to Carter mainly because Dantly was a forward. His game was way more similar to a PF than a perimeter player. He had issues matching up with players because he was giving height in just about all of his matchups.

Post #8 » by **TrueLAfan** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:57 pm

Dantley is one of those guys that is much, much better on paper than he is on the court. I think penbeast0 makes good points about his offensive strength...and brings up a lot of the negatives. Maybe not enough of the negatives. Dantley had a tendency to hurt teams. He was great at what he did but, literally, did want to do anything else. That made him a selfish player and unpleasant teammate. He was, for all intents and purposes, uncoachable. Teams and coaches tired of him quickly. And when he was in a situation to win a title, and all he had to do was adjust his game (slightly), he simply could not do it. He was traded for a player of a more or less similar level--Mark Aguirre--who was okay with taking 20% fewer shots. Aguirre has two rings as a result. The fact that it took 20 years for Dantley to get his number retired in Utah should tell you something, given his amazing individual numbers. Or maybe it shouldn't. In Dantley's seven years there, the Jazz never got over 45 wins, had only two winning seasons, and won less than 30 games four times. Of the players penbeast0 lists--Aguirre, English, King, Wilkins--I'd rate Dantley last or, maybe, next to last.

Best player not in the HOF? On paper, maybe. I'd take Jack Sikma six days a week and twice on Sunday over Adrian Dantley.

Post #9 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:06 pm

Best eligible player not in the HOF: Artis Gilmore -- accept no substitutes

Pats19andO · Post #10 » by **Pats19andO** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:16 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Best eligible player not in the HOF: Artis Gilmore -- accept no substitutes

most deff

carrottop12 · Post #11 » by **carrottop12** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:56 am

Imagine Carmelo Anthony. Kind of a guard forward tweener, did most of his scoring in the low post, not much on defense, a really hard player.

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #12 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:18 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Best eligible player not in the HOF: Artis Gilmore -- accept no substitutes

Paul Westphal deserves a mention, imo.

Post #13 » by **TrueLAfan** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:36 pm

Totally agree about Gilmore--I was giving Sikma as a virtual contemporary of Dantley that is rarely talked about now...but was, IMO, a more valuable player.

Post #14 » by **penbeast0** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:29 pm

Sikma has the same problem as Terry Cummings, he was very good for a long enough stretch to be considered a top player, but then spent another long stretch as a mediocre role player. As for Paul Westphal, he had neither the duration, the dominance, or the well rounded game (weak defense) to be in a HOF discussion.

Point forward · Post #15 » by **Point forward** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:07 am

For non-HOFers-that-should-be, I am personally on the Dennis Johnson bandwagon. (RIP)

Anyway, Dantley = beefed up Carmelo?

Myth_Breaker · Post #16 » by **Myth_Breaker** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:06 pm

penbeast0 wrote:He was basically a superior offensive version of Charles Barkley without the rebounding . . . and I consider Barkley the greatest offensive PF of all time. Maybe the best individual scorer to ever play SF including Bird and Rick Barry.

Personally I'd still rank at least Bird, Baylor and Barry ahead of him. But his .540 career FG percentage is certainly impressive... especially for someone being 6-5 and with one leg longer than the other.

That said, he was a mediocre rebounder, a poor defender, a player whose coaches tended to dislike him, and his game required him to have the ball in his hands to work his defenders with his nearly infinite variety of fakes and moves meaning that his teammates tended not to be rewarded for cutting or breaking free which bogged down offenses.

He was statistically the best of the class of great scoring SFs of his day, a slight step ahead of Mark Aquirre, more consistent than Bernard King but less so than Alex English, and clearly superior to Dominique Wilkins who is the favorite of the casual fan.

To be fair: I don't think his trading by the Pistons 3 months before they won a title was right. After all, Aguirre wasn't so different about being trigger-happy than Adrian. Proof: he needed some serious motivational talk from Laimbeer and the others after joining the Pistons. But he was Isiah's (and Magic's) friend, so was getting a free pass about that...

BTW: I remember some Detroit fan saying that later Dantley got a championship ring from the Pistons for their unfinished season anyway. I'm not exactly in a position to judge him, but I like to think I would reject such a dubious honour. I mean: if so, Baylor could demand a ring for 1971/72 season during which he retired as well...

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #17 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:48 pm

penbeast0 wrote:As for Paul Westphal, he had neither the duration, the dominance, or the well rounded game (weak defense) to be in a HOF discussion.

well, he's the only player with multiple All NBA 1st team not in the HOF, I think it's something worth to take note.

Myth_Breaker · Post #18 » by **Myth_Breaker** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:56 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

well, he's the only player with multiple All NBA 1st team not in the HOF, I think it's something worth to take note.

He is also e.g. absolutely worst rebounder and one of the worst defenders among all HoF-candidates in history - it is also something to take note.
Though personally I'd nominate him to the Hall of Fame: I mean, there is not many people able to lead their squads past Warriors-like theoretically superior teams and then losing to even more almighty Celtics in the Finals only after some highly controversial officiating decisions.

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #19 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:31 pm

still, good enough to be first team all nba three times in four years.

Post #20 » by **penbeast0** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:46 pm

Well, even ignoring the Artis Gilmore snub (and even Mel Daniels who should be in before Westphal too); would you really pick Westphal over any of the following? Hakeem, Ewing, DJ, Dantley, or Mullin . . . if so, can you make the comparisom and explain it with something more than just the 3 1st team All-NBA awards (which is admittedly a good starting point)