Where would Rondo rank now?

[rambo_ortega]

imo. he's on the jose calderon level. although calderon is a little bit better.

[campybatman]

imo. he's on the jose calderon level. although calderon is a little bit better.

If only Rondo could shoot like Calderon who has improved considerable in the NBA. However, European player tend to already have that going for them--shooting skills.

[Luxurytaxlotterybust]

I agree with the 3rd tier ranking. But while Rondo is inconsistent he shows a lot of promise. I believe we have found our point guard for the future.

He will keep getting better and better.

[campybatman]

Chauncey Billups was suppose to be the Celtics point guard of the future prior to. Let's hope that Ainge exhibits a lot more patience than Pitino did with Billups or Joe Johnson for that matter.

[Taget]

Chauncey Billups was suppose to be the Celtics point guard of the future prior to. Let's hope that Ainge exhibits a lot more patience than Pitino did with Billups or Joe Johnson for that matter.

I still remember Couzy and even Tommy picking Billups apart when he was a rookie and just how estatic they both were when we got Kenny Anderson. Course that was back in the koolaid days when Pitino could do no wrong.

[humblebum]

Rondo's a much better defender than Calderon. He's also a better slasher and athlete. He's younger and he will improve quite a bit more than Calderon will in the next few years. Calderon is a solid set up guy with great shooting ability. He's a pretty mediocre athlete though and not a great defender or slasher. I like his game but he doesn't have the potential to be "The Guy" as much as Rondo does. Rondo could potentially be a 15pts, 50%fg, 6rbs, 6assts, 3stls type player. I'll take that over a jump shooting ball control point guard who can't guard up on the other end.

Right now though, Calderon gets a slight edge on Rondo and that's based more on consistency then anything else.

[campybatman]

I'll take that over a jump shooting ball control point guard who can't guard up on the other end.

Then you wouldn't want Nash either.

Where Rondo will make a name for himself now and going forward will come during Boston's playoffs run this season. The continuing skepticism toward Rondo is: How will he match up again Billups should Detroit and Boston meet? And could he, a first year starter, lead a Celtics team in the playoffs.

[humblebum]

-= original quote snipped =-




Then you wouldn't want Nash either.

Where Rondo will make a name for himself now and going forward will come during Boston's playoffs run this season. The continuing skepticism toward Rondo is: How will he match up again Billups should Detroit and Boston meet? And could he, a first year starter, lead a Celtics team in the playoffs.

First off, Calderon is no Steve Nash.

Second, has Steve Nash ever won an NBA title?

Third, when was the last time that a perimeter oriented, jumpshooting, poor defense, ball control PG led a team to an NBA Finals title?

See, I don't buy into media hype. PGs with great offensive skill but no defense usually don't lead their teams to Championship Rings. Steve Nash and Calderon are fine players but they usually don't win championships because they give up as much or more than they get on the offensive end.

[humblebum]

And to the second part of your post I will ask, first:

How will Billups match up with Rondo?

Rondo has a decided advantage in the speed and quickness department vs. Billups. The downfall of Rondo in the earlier matchup with the Pistons had to do with Rondo picking up cheap fouls and getting into foul trouble because of it. Rondo displayed just how foolish he could make Billups look off the dribble. The question is "will Doc be smart enough to capitalize on this mismatch throughout the course of the whole game"?

As far as Rondo's leadership and poise in the playoffs are concerned that is a legitimate mystery. Still, given the type of plays he's had the penchant for making late in games recently I'd say it certainly possible that Rondo will be just fine come playoff time. That's the type of stage that Rondo will need to establish himself as a great player. I believe he'll do just that.

[campybatman]

Great quote from Rondo about yesterday's game. He knows how to put his game in perspective.

"My role on this team is not to score but, at the same time, I can score," said Rondo, who had one other double-double this season (14 points, 12 rebounds against Dallas on Jan. 31). "I just try to go out and defend and do the intangibles."

Rondo, who had 11 assists on two occasions during his rookie season, was proud to reach a dozen for the first time in the NBA.

"It means a lot," he said. "I

[eloper]

First off, Calderon is no Steve Nash.

Second, has Steve Nash ever won an NBA title?

Third, when was the last time that a perimeter oriented, jumpshooting, poor defense, ball control PG led a team to an NBA Finals title?

See, I don't buy into media hype. PGs with great offensive skill but no defense usually don't lead their teams to Championship Rings. Steve Nash and Calderon are fine players but they usually don't win championships because they give up as much or more than they get on the offensive end.

You're drastically undervaluing Calderon. He is "The Guy" already. He's 15th in the league in PER, 3rd amongst PGs (behind Billups and Paul, and yes, that means he's ahead of Nash), while maintaining a usage rate lower than anyone in the top 40 not named Andrew Bynum. I'll assume that since you don't seem all that high on Calderon you aren't a big PER guy, but it's impossible to ignore how Jose is capable of putting up 12 and 9 in only 32 mpg without dominating the ball. He has a tremendously low turnover rate for a guy with his assist rate (I'd venture to stay historically significant), he shoots ridiculous percentages, and he does so in significant minutes (meaning its clearly not a fluke type situation).

The guy is an efficiency god. Rondo's a nice player, and he's got room to improve, but never will he even come close to approaching Jose's statistical contribution. You use numbers like "15,6,6,3 on 50%" but it's important to note how different 50% when you're shooting only 2s is from 50% when you're shooting a large number of 3s (Rondo has a 52.6 TS%, slightly below average, compared to Calderon's 62.2 one of the best in the league). It's also important to note that with Rondo's 6 assists we'll be getting 2.5, where as with Calderon's 11 assists we'll be getting 2 turnovers. Sure Rondo's a better defender, but he'd have to be a legendary defender and Calderon would have to be the single worst defender to ever play the game to even come close to making up the difference in their offensive games.

To put this simply, Calderon has a PER about 7 points higher than Rondo's, with both of them maintaining a similar usage rage and both playing about the same ammount of minutes. Unless you think Rondo's man to man defense (realize that steals are already included in PER), which is overrated to begin with, makes up the gap between being a slightly above average contributer and an all-star PG than I simply can't fathom how you think Calderon only gets a "slight" edge at this point.

[GuyClinch]

I agree Calderon is a nice player and if athleticism was everything to a PG Steve Nash wouldn't have won an MVP. Rondo is more of an athlete learning the game - rather then a super high skilled PG right now. And before people get angry - yes a PG should know how to shoot a free throw at better then 67%. It's a basic skill..

The downside I worry about Rondo (who is progressing nicely) is injury concerns. With his sleight build and his slashing game I feel he is likely to get beat up or injured. On the plus side he is already good enough to get the job done with this team. We don't need a super hero..

Pete

[campybatman]

And to the second part of your post I will ask, first:

How will Billups match up with Rondo?

Rondo has a decided advantage in the speed and quickness department vs. Billups. The downfall of Rondo in the earlier matchup with the Pistons had to do with Rondo picking up cheap fouls and getting into foul trouble because of it. Rondo displayed just how foolish he could make Billups look off the dribble. The question is "will Doc be smart enough to capitalize on this mismatch throughout the course of the whole game"?

You're preaching to the messenger. I'm not the one who feels this doubt in Rondo versus any starting point guard for the reason you'd just given. The national media looks at Billups and see a veteran point guard and leader who has already climbed the highest mountain that's the playoffs and conquered it. In Rondo, they see a nice young player who's still unproven. But, this in part is why you watch the playoffs. Real players step up when the stakes are at the highest and want-a-bees take steps backwards on cue. A lot of specific questions regarding Rondo could be answered during what will likely be his first playoffs appearance this season.

If Rondo has Billups on his heels defensively as was the case in their game one match up. Then I'm not too concern for Rondo guarding Billups. Sometimes, the best defense is a better offense. Wear down your opponent so much that he has to expend energy guarding you that you can exploit this. That's what Rondo does... He makes you work as a defender when he has the green light to giddy-up. Where the national critics bark the loudest is when they want to assert that Rondo is a small point guard in regards to size; he's shorter than Billups and has a slender frame. Thus, he [Rondo] is a target for a bigger point guard in the league who can post up and score effectively in this way or on the perimeter.

Still, Rondo's learning... It isn't like teammates aren't advising him on Billups and what he could do in other unfavorable match ups. And there's game tapes or putting time in the film room. Rondo has a good head on his shoulders. That's evident when he speaks basketball. He understands it and desires to get better as a player.

[humblebum]

In reply to geraldgreen5:

My opinion on Calderon is that he is a very, very nice offensive point guard. He's super solid handling the ball and making decisions. He kills you when you give him the slightest bit of room for his jumpshot. He's got an aggressive mentality on the offensive end. He's a real good point guard whom I'd love to have on my basketball team if I were a coach. Here's the problem with him though.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the Raptors and Celtics match up in the first round of the playoffs. Calderon puts in his crazy efficiency stats and hits all kinds of jumpers on the Celtics defense while limiting turnovers and keeping the ball moving. He does this while being defended respectably by Rondo. However, on the other end of the court he's getting consistently abused by Rondo. Rondo is getting layups and making easy kickout passes and dump offs off penetration.

Thus, due to his defensive limitations his great, efficient offensive production is negated by his poor defense. Not only that but all the penetration from the point of attack leads to foul trouble for Chris Bosh and the rest of the bigs who need to save their fouls to stop KG and Perk and Baby and Powe. Thats the problem with a no defense PG. Their stats look good but they don't play winning basketball because they can't stop or slow down their opponent.

[humblebum]

And let me ask again, "When was the last time a team led by an all-O-no-D-point-guard won a championship?"

Most successful teams over the last 20 years have had excellent defenders at the PG spot. A lot of teams haven't even had tremendous PG play during their title seasons.

Ron Harper, Avery Johnson, John Paxson, Derek Fisher, old Gary Payton, etc. etc. These are the types of guys that have played the PG spot for championship teams. Generally they're solid defenders who limit mistakes and have a penchant for making big plays late in games. I think Rondo has the potential and the opportunity to put his name on that list.

I'd also say that Rondo bears an uncanny likeness in terms of style of play to Tony Parker.

[GuyClinch]

Thus, due to his defensive limitations his great, efficient offensive production is negated by his poor defense. Not only that but all the penetration from the point of attack leads to foul trouble for Chris Bosh and the rest of the bigs who need to save their fouls to stop KG and Perk and Baby and Powe. Thats the problem with a no defense PG. Their stats look good but they don't play winning basketball because they can't stop or slow down their opponent.

Calderon is not a "no defense" PG - that's the problem. Rondo's PER AGAINST at PG is 16.7. Calderon's is 17.1. But the Rondo fans here want to tell us that ONLY RONDO can play defense? LMAO. If you switch Rondo for Jose right now the C's still are in the mix for a championship. If anything their chances are upgraded.

Listen in the NBA with the rule changes NO pg's are stopping dribble penetration. Certainly not Rondo who gets beaten mutiple times by slower PGs. Rondo might be the quickest PG in the league but against opposing players PGs are now at a huge disadvantage without the handchecking rules.

You watch Steve Nash right? You know what Nash gets BY PEOPLE. How? He is slower the nearly any PG out there. But it doesn't matter the offensive PG gets the edge. It's especially true with PG's that can shoot. Much like Pierce they use the outside shot to set up dribble penetration despite not being especially fleet of foot.

Pete

[humblebum]

Well, I know this has gotten lost in the discussion but I do believe that right now Calderon is the better all around PG. As I said this has to do with the fact that Calderon is much, much more consistent in his production even if his defense is not as good as Rondo's. The thing is is that as Rondo develops his defense will improve. Rondo has struggled with the pick and roll defense at times much more so than being broken down off the dribble in Iso situations. I agree that the handchecking rules leave all defenders at a disadvantage but your certainly not disregarding the importance of defensive capability?? The thing is that Rondo has it and Calderon does not. Calderon might not be a "no defense" PG but he certainly doesn't have many plus defensive skills. Whereas Rondo has plenty of plus defensive skills but he hasn't been able to put all those things together on a consistent basis in order to be looked at as a solid PG defender.

[eloper]

In reply to geraldgreen5:

My opinion on Calderon is that he is a very, very nice offensive point guard. He's super solid handling the ball and making decisions. He kills you when you give him the slightest bit of room for his jumpshot. He's got an aggressive mentality on the offensive end. He's a real good point guard whom I'd love to have on my basketball team if I were a coach. Here's the problem with him though.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the Raptors and Celtics match up in the first round of the playoffs. Calderon puts in his crazy efficiency stats and hits all kinds of jumpers on the Celtics defense while limiting turnovers and keeping the ball moving. He does this while being defended respectably by Rondo. However, on the other end of the court he's getting consistently abused by Rondo. Rondo is getting layups and making easy kickout passes and dump offs off penetration.

Thus, due to his defensive limitations his great, efficient offensive production is negated by his poor defense. Not only that but all the penetration from the point of attack leads to foul trouble for Chris Bosh and the rest of the bigs who need to save their fouls to stop KG and Perk and Baby and Powe. Thats the problem with a no defense PG. Their stats look good but they don't play winning basketball because they can't stop or slow down their opponent.

Calderon plays at a near allstar level on offense, and defensivly plays slightly below average. He doesn't make every PG playing against him look like a all-star, and for him to "negate" his offensive contributions that would have to be the case. On average, Calderon's production is 7.8 PER points than his opponent on any given night. He'd have to be far and away the worst defensive player in the league to negate his offensive contributions.