Shaq to Phoenix - Was it a good deal for the Suns?

[Craig McDermott]

I think it's as simple as this: Shaq adds a new element to the mix.

As tombattor says, the other players on the Suns can all replace what Marion brought to the table, but Shaq brings a different dimension to the game, a dimension that the Suns have sorely lacked in the past.

That dimension is the ability to play slow-down, inside-out, half-court, possession by possession basketball come playoff time. Amare and Marion was an exciting, yet less-than-intimidating frontcourt. You could pound it inside all day and the Suns had no response to that. Now they have the Diesel!

Despite his age and his deteriorating game, Shaq allows the Suns to slide Amare to his more natural position, Power Forward. Shaq can now guard the best post option for the opposition which allows Amare to roam and block shots. This will reinvigorate Amare on the defensive end.

Finally, the Suns do not have to solely move towards a halfcourt game. You only need 2-4 players to run the break effectively and Amare, Hill, Barbosa and Bell will all suffice as fastbreak finishers with Steve Nash as the trigger man. The Suns can also revert back to small ball by simply moving Diaw to the PF spot.

In the end I agree with Gonzo. This is a good deal on two fronts: they get a chance to win a title in the next two seasons and after that they have the opportunity to rebuild. Perfect scenario IMO whereas with Marion they were more Pretender than Contender.

This is easier said than done on the fly. They're switching their offensive philosophy midseason (w/ what is an arguably mediocre coach). They won't move solely to halfcourt, but they're not going to run as much in the playoffs when Shaq is in the lineup, period. It already slows down in the playoffs even w/o him -- SA had them in halfcourt ball in no time.

With 1:1 defense, they're not going to get the amount open looks they've thrived on for years. The only way that's not so is if Shaq is actually spry that night and hits his shots or if there's a 2nd string C on him -- then the opp has to double him and he can kick it out. The Suns are a team w/ numerous players who have trouble creating their own shots or can't break a player off the dribble. The transition game they played opened those guys up around the arc.

[Craig McDermott]

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The big difference is this. Marion makes his shots when Nash creates for him just like Bell, Diaw or whoever, but Shaq CREATES shots, or make the existing shots better shots for everyone, just by being out there. With Shaq, there will be a ton of easy layups, open 3's, etc. And with Nash running the offense, just imagine how much easier it'll be for everyone.

Think about it. What can Marion do that can't be made up by the leftover Suns players? Not much. Do they really need another big man who stands outside and take open shots Nash creates for them? Not at all.

You could easily claim Shaq creates shots a couple years ago and I'd agree with you. Now it's a crapshoot whether he does that in any given game. Ask Chicago. If Shaq looks old and tired and not a threat offensively, then there's no need to double him.

RE: Marion, I think Marion's overall athleticism is key, he's a better rebounder than Diaw, and a quicker slasher and better help defender. I recall him blocking a shot at rim level at the buzzer to win a game a couple yrs back. I think that Phx could get away w/ Diaw or Hill better against Finley than Odom. Odom crashes the boards if he does nothing else.

You see Shaq's benefit on offense, but imo, the main contribution he will make is by virtue of his 350 lb arse. Bynum won't be able to tear Phx up on standard post ups while having to back down a grain silo. He'll have to get most of his points on lobs and putbacks.

[BrokenLeftyJumper]

I think Kerr totally overreacted on this one. I think the dumbest argument is that since the Suns didn't win the title the last few years, it's proven that they can't win with the current core. People act like the Suns were some sort of colossal failure come playoff time, like as soon as they hit the playoffs the run-n-gun game went to pieces. It didn't. If not for a pretty BS suspension on Amare and Diaw, we might have been talking about the NBA Champion Suns. They played the Spurs extremely tight last year, and very well could have won that series if not for some unfortunate breaks. Every year, the Suns have played the would-be NBA champs or NBA finalists very tough in the playoffs. You can't win the title every year, most teams that win the title take their beatings in the playoffs before finally breaking through. I think the Suns should have been more patient with their core.

And Shaq is not the answer. All of a sudden people act like the old Shaq could come back. It's not happening. He'll give them less defensively than Marion did, he'll get eviscerated in pick and rolls, and if he tries to just stand under the tin and clog the lane, he's gonna get called for a ton of fouls.

As for his offensive game, he doesn't demand a double-team anymore and he won't be able to provide the spacing that the Suns have thrived off of.

And I think the loss of Shawn Marion is going to be huge for the Suns. He's really a great player. The perfect glue guy for that squad. They don't need another creator because of Nash, so Marion was the perfect guy for them in that he could go get 20 a game without once having a play called for him. Nash gets so much credit for his passing, and in many ways Marion was overlooked, because while it was Nash throwing him the pass, it was Marion being in the right place, making the right cut, running the floor, etc. He's really a very smart basketball player who is very very underrated. Watching him yesterday play for the Heat, you really have to respect Marions game. He never holds the ball for more than a second, always makes the right pass, always makes the right cut, always busts his hump.

Honestly, if Marion was white....I digress.

[Triple M]

I didn't like the trade If Miami is willing to give up Shaq for a player who can opt out this summer what does that tell you. Maybe I'm putting too much into that but they basically cut him.

[humblebum]

I understand where your coming from Brokenleftyjumper but a lot of what Marion brings to the table is duplicated in the roster. They've got another tweener PF in Diaw, who's admittedly not half the player Marion is as an individual player, but he could step up his play to the level he once performed at. You've got a solid SF in Grant Hill who's an excellent slasher and finisher on the break as well as a pretty consistent mid-range shooter and shot creator. Grant also moves the ball really well with the pass. Then you have Amare who's a much, much more impactful PF whose had to play out of position due to Marion only fitting in at PF with his unique skill set (not quite a SF but not quite a PF). It's been said.. they players on the roster can produce what Marion did while Shaq, even a slowed down Shaq, brings a new element to their team. This will allow the Suns to play a more traditional style come playoff time.

Craig Mcdermott: The Suns have a very smart coaching staff and obviously there is a mandate from somewhere in the organization to integrate a more balanced (time to use some halfcourt sets!!!) offense. They just added a big time shot creator who's coming from a team with NO shooters to a team loaded with shooters. That means more space to operate for the big fella. Shaq is also a very, very good passing big man. Iso's for Shaq in the halfcourt just add to what was already a very diverse offense.

As far as your statement that the Suns lack shot creators or that they're now a completely half court team or that they won't be able to integrate Shaq quickly enough... I disagree wholeheartedly on all counts. Nash, Hill, Stoudamire and O'Neal are all accomplished shot creators. Barbosa is a complete wildcard with a great open court game but also the quickness and shooting ability to hurt you in the half court. They can still play uptempo and they can use O'neal as a pick setter. They only have to run some semi consistent Isos on the low block for Shaq and he'll be set. I think it's a good move all around especially if Shaq is motivated.

[BrokenLeftyJumper]

I understand where your coming from Brokenleftyjumper but a lot of what Marion brings to the table is duplicated in the roster. They've got another tweener PF in Diaw, who's admittedly not half the player Marion is as an individual player, but he could step up his play to the level he once performed at. You've got a solid SF in Grant Hill who's an excellent slasher and finisher on the break as well as a pretty consistent mid-range shooter and shot creator. Grant also moves the ball really well with the pass. Then you have Amare who's a much, much more impactful PF whose had to play out of position due to Marion only fitting in at PF with his unique skill set (not quite a SF but not quite a PF). It's been said.. they players on the roster can produce what Marion did while Shaq, even a slowed down Shaq, brings a new element to their team. This will allow the Suns to play a more traditional style come playoff time.

I really think Marion was, just behind Steve Nash, the key to making the whole Suns system work. He was always in the right place at the right time, he's a great finisher, and he fits in great because he doesn't need the ball to be effective. Have him set screens, have him fill lanes, have him stand in the corner and bomb threes, he could do it all.

I can see what your saying about making up for his absence, the problem with that is that I see the Suns becoming a completely different team. I don't know if they'll be able to adjust effectively by playoff time. I don't think they need another shot-creator, they can let Steve Nash play screen roll all day and the Suns will be fine. What they needed was someone who can guard the post and the rim. Shawn Marion was their best defender, and Shaq isn't much of a defensive force these days.

I really think they should have tried to swing a deal for Stromile Swift or maybe even dare I say it, Kwame Brown.

[Craig McDermott]

Honestly, if Marion was white....I digress.

....you'd have to re-do all that talk about athleticism.

[humblebum]

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....you'd have to re-do all that talk about athleticism.

LOL.

Brokenleftyjumper:

I really can't agree with you that Marion was the second most important piece for the Suns. Definitely not on the offensive end, and on the defensive end he was undersized for the PF position which forced Amare to play out of position defensively. On the offensive end I've seen Marion completely taken out of games yet the Suns offense still hummed its way to plus 100 pts. Marion was never a great playoff performer from what I can remember. The Suns two best players IMO are clearly Nash and Amare and now Amare is getting to play his natural position more. I think that is possibly the biggest development from this deal... the Suns are no longer pushovers upfront and in the middle.

Could it take time for the team to make adjustments to their style of play? Sure. But let's acknowledge that to a certain point Shaq will be adjusting to the Suns style of play. If D'Antoni can handle Shaq's usage deftly than this deal has the potential to really lift the Suns play high enough to get them to the Finals, a place they'd never been with Marion at PF.

[LarryBrdismyDad]

Am I the only one who thinks that adding Jermaine O'Neal would have been a better option for the Suns from a purely basketball standpoint? JO is a much better defender then Shaq is at this point in time and I think he could become a force on a team like the Suns with Nash setting him up on pick and rolls and pick and pops. I remember last yr John Hollinger had JO on his first team all defense in the NBA for centers. JO also blocks and alters more shots then Shaq does at this point in time because Shaq has added too much weight and can't jump as high now. JO would also be a better fit for the uptempo offense then Shaq because he isn't overweight and out of shape. JO is also much younger then Shaq and while he had struggled this season, he is as of right now a better player then Shaq. I think the age thing is a factor because Nash may have 3 good seasons left while Shaq is still a question mark with his productivity for next season and further seasons. JO is hurt right now just like Shaq but is expected back after the all star break. Last season JO averaged 19 and 9 so you can see that he is still a pretty good player. Shaq's numbers have dropped off a lot the past 2 seasons while JO's have just dropped off this season that is because of injuries and the change in the style of play that Indy now has with O'Brien.

The things that Shaq clearly has in his favor over JO are leadership, championship experience, chemistry, and giving the team that spark that they need in the middle of their season. Shaq I think is a great leader and should do a good job assimilating himself into the Suns locker room. He has a great personality and is the one guy who can yell at Amare when he isn't playing well and Amare will actually listen to him. He can also mentor Amare and teach him how to become a better defender. JO I think could be a problem from a chemistry point of view because he may think of himself as "the man" because of his huge contract and a few all star appearances.

[sully00]

Some good points about money but some of the rest of this is a little off base.

This isn't about offense or defense, it is about matching up. Marion is a flawed player in the Western Conference right now. I don't know if Craig McDermott is a Laker fan or what but Lamar Odom owns Marion and there is the problem of Marion. While a great two way player he is a great defensive wing player and a great offensive post player. Force him to play either postition straight up and he is exposed. If a team had a beast at the PF spot the Suns couldn't put Amare on the 4 and let Marion guard the 5 so they would have to hurt their offense and bring in a Kurt Thomas type player who they actually no longer have.

So take the Lakers for example with Marion the Suns can't even hide him at the SF spot now with Gasol. In contrast while it will be no picnic for Grant Hill to guard Odom, Odom is screwed trying to guard him 18-20 ft from the basket. Grant Hill has given PHX a veteran star who is on the same time table as Nash, focused on a championship and not on a contract. Now they add a similar player in Shaq. Hill gives PHX good enough defense at the 3 spot while being the prototype SF.

I think far too much has been made of PHX's style. Did Marion excell in it? Certainly, but is that because Nash maximized his asset or Marion was so great. For the rest of this season and next Nash has the prototype at almost every position. He has a tough defensive minded SG, the classic SF, the classic PF, and the ulitimate C. He has the combo guard in Barbossa as well as a combo forward in Diaw. They have a 7 man rotation that can cover almost every option and match up. This why the JO option doesn't make sense for them he duplicates Amare, he won't play center, whether he should is another question. With Shaq at the 5 Amare will be a much more effective defender at the PF spot.

In the end Marion had become a headache, from a scheme standpoint as much as his contract. His game offensively and defensively didn't match up anymore out West, while in the East everyone is using hybrid players.

If they get nothing out of Shaq they still may reach the conference finals, but with him they may be able to win it all.

[humblebum]

Great post Sully. I agree wholeheartedly.

[BrokenLeftyJumper]

I think far too much has been made of PHX's style. Did Marion excell in it? Certainly, but is that because Nash maximized his asset or Marion was so great.

I think Shawn Marion gets far too little credit in this regard. As much as people want to act like Nash was the one that made Marion such a better player, the stats seem to indicate the opposite. Marion put up very similar numbers while playing with Nash as he did pre-Nash. On the other hand, Nash went from a very good PG to a two-time MVP while playing with Marion. So is it Nash maximizing Marion or Marion maximizing Nash? Judging from the numbers, I'd go with the latter.

As far as the matchups go, I can understand that switching Amare to 4 might help him not get torched on such a consistent level. But I just don't see how getting rid of your best defender and replacing him with a worse defender makes the overall team defense better. Switching Amare to the 4 isn't all of a sudden gonna make him a dynamite defender. He's not a good defender no matter where you stick him. And Odom has had some games against Marion in the past, but Grant Hill ain't gonna do any better, he'll probably get torched even worse. I also don't see how Grant Hill is better from 18-20 feet than Marion is.

I think what it comes down to the end is whether or not you think Shaq has any gas left in the tank. Sully, you refer to him as the ultimate C, so I figure you still think Shaq can be a force. I'm not convinced. I think he'll have some problems defensively with the speed of the West, and I think its gonna take a while to get him implemented into the offense.

[tombattor]

I think far too much has been made of PHX's style. Did Marion excell in it? Certainly, but is that because Nash maximized his asset or Marion was so great.

I think Shawn Marion gets far too little credit in this regard. As much as people want to act like Nash was the one that made Marion such a better player, the stats seem to indicate the opposite. Marion put up very similar numbers while playing with Nash as he did pre-Nash. On the other hand, Nash went from a very good PG to a two-time MVP while playing with Marion. So is it Nash maximizing Marion or Marion maximizing Nash? Judging from the numbers, I'd go with the latter.

As far as the matchups go, I can understand that switching Amare to 4 might help him not get torched on such a consistent level. But I just don't see how getting rid of your best defender and replacing him with a worse defender makes the overall team defense better. Switching Amare to the 4 isn't all of a sudden gonna make him a dynamite defender. He's not a good defender no matter where you stick him. And Odom has had some games against Marion in the past, but Grant Hill ain't gonna do any better, he'll probably get torched even worse. I also don't see how Grant Hill is better from 18-20 feet than Marion is.

I think what it comes down to the end is whether or not you think Shaq has any gas left in the tank. Sully, you refer to him as the ultimate C, so I figure you still think Shaq can be a force. I'm not convinced. I think he'll have some problems defensively with the speed of the West, and I think its gonna take a while to get him implemented into the offense.

Well, Marion always put up good numbers, but his team never won caca before Nash got there. That's why Nash gets all the credit for Suns' success and Marion doesn't.

[BrokenLeftyJumper]

Well, Marion always put up good numbers, but his team never won caca before Nash got there. That's why Nash gets all the credit for Suns' success and Marion doesn't.

I'm talking about the "Nash makes Marion the player he is" argument. I think Marion helps Nash as much as Nash helps Marion. Many others seem to think Marion is the one greatly benefiting from Nash, and I'm trying to say thats not really the case because his numbers have been the same with or without Nash while Nash turned into an MVP all of a sudden once he's paired up with Marion.

Also, the whole 'Nash turned around the Suns storyline' might have been just been an issue of good timing. What if hadn't been Nash but Marion joining the Suns in Free Agency in 2004? Would it have been Marion who all of a sudden was the key to the Suns success? I think Nash is a great player, but I think he gets a little too much credit for the Suns success, and Marion far too little.

[bill murray has game]

I think this was a bad trade for Phoenix. I don't think Shaq will actually improve the defense. He is huge but he is a low energy player except for a few years with the lakers when his defense was above average. If they don't win this year forget about next year. Shaq is literally breaking down in my opinion. I think Marion is underated and Miami is definately better off with Marion over Shaq these next few years.

[humblebum]

I think far too much has been made of PHX's style. Did Marion excell in it? Certainly, but is that because Nash maximized his asset or Marion was so great.

As far as the matchups go, I can understand that switching Amare to 4 might help him not get torched on such a consistent level. But I just don't see how getting rid of your best defender and replacing him with a worse defender makes the overall team defense better. Switching Amare to the 4 isn't all of a sudden gonna make him a dynamite defender. He's not a good defender no matter where you stick him. And Odom has had some games against Marion in the past, but Grant Hill ain't gonna do any better, he'll probably get torched even worse. I also don't see how Grant Hill is better from 18-20 feet than Marion is.

I think what it comes down to the end is whether or not you think Shaq has any gas left in the tank. Sully, you refer to him as the ultimate C, so I figure you still think Shaq can be a force. I'm not convinced. I think he'll have some problems defensively with the speed of the West, and I think its gonna take a while to get him implemented into the offense.

Regarding Marion being the Suns' best defender. Sure he might be their best overall defender but he was not a good interior defender. Don't you think it's important that your Power Forward is capable of defending the paint against PF's and Centers?

For instance, Pierce and Posey are solid defenders but would you want them guarding Tim Duncan full time? No, but that's what your PF is supposed to do and Marion is only a marginally better defender of PF's than either Pierce or Posey. Your other option was to play Amare on Duncan with no legitimate help inside because Marion was too small.

The Suns can now defend teams position by position with legitimate players at each spot. Your not going to get great defense from Shaq but he's a legitimate interior defender (interior defense is the most important aspect of defense IMO) whereas Marion wasn't. That's a big improvement.