Mavs @ Nets

[ppp000]

When Laura Green said that Avery reminded the guys in one of the timeouts of the 4th quarter that the Nets were over the limit in fouls and they should take advantage of it, I couldn't help but drop my head when Howard took an awkward looking 20ft jumper on the first play. Even though it went in, it shows what this team is lacking (no confidence in the inside game whatsoever).

That's what I've been saying all season.

Josh may have better stats but to me he has not become a better player. I HARDLY ever see him attack the basket anymore, always settling for long (and often contested) jumpers. Mix it up, you're athletic!!!

Dirk was aggressive in the 1st quarter and then like the rest of our team, settled.

This team is full of NANCY BOYS that are afraid of physical contact inside. I'd rather see missed layups than missed jumpers, b/c greater chance of drawing more contact and getting to the FT line more.

Once a good defensive team in the playoffs takes away our perimeter shot, we're toast basically. Add to the fact that we almost never get points in transition or fastbreak. This season, not only does Avery play small ball, he plays small SLOW ball.

Our offense has been predicated on one thing: ability to make jumpers. Live and die by the jumper, in the playoffs when defenses tighten, we will die by it.

[JES12]

Harris isn't a PG; he's a SG.

I know...5.3 assist in 30 min is kinda high for a SG, but oh wells, everyone has their own POV.

[JES12]

DDansby, I know where you are going with this but one thing I think the Mavs could be lacking if they land Kidd is a good atheletic finisher. If the Mavs do make a trade for Kidd, I would love to see them pickup someone who loves to run the floor and plays above the rim. Those guys are a dime a dozen so it shouldn't be too difficult to get one.

Uh oh, you said it. Be prepaired for the page long wrath he gave me! We agree, but since we are not on his page, he will write a page about why he feels he should not repond to you, but does. Apparently, having someone to finish Kidd's plays is a non-factor as Kidd is supposed to make our current players into those type of players. We just don't know it yet because we are ignorant to what a true PG is supposed to do as we have not had one on our team for a while.

[JES12]

That's what I've been saying all season.

Josh may have better stats but to me he has not become a better player. I HARDLY ever see him attack the basket anymore, always settling for long (and often contested) jumpers. Mix it up, you're athletic!!!

Dirk was aggressive in the 1st quarter and then like the rest of our team, settled.

This team is full of NANCY BOYS that are afraid of physical contact inside. I'd rather see missed layups than missed jumpers, b/c greater chance of drawing more contact and getting to the FT line more.

Once a good defensive team in the playoffs takes away our perimeter shot, we're toast basically. Add to the fact that we almost never get points in transition or fastbreak. This season, not only does Avery play small ball, he plays small SLOW ball.

Our offense has been predicated on one thing: ability to make jumpers. Live and die by the jumper, in the playoffs when defenses tighten, we will die by it.

I agree with this entire post. Josh has better stats, but he is less agressive on both ends of the court and IMO, reverting to a worse form than last year. But I got to admit, some of those shots looks sweet when they go in; when they don't, I get mad at the small ball lineup letting the other team get all the rebounds.

[thierry]

I'm feeling Vince to Dallas.

[Jujuba69]

whers stackhouse?

+ 1

[TheGrowth]

I like the Vince to Dallas trade too. Realize Vince is also a pretty good passer, so pairing him with Harris is still going to generate open looks for other players.

[DDansby123]

MavsFan40, I say Harris isn't a PG because...well...I don't think he is. He gets his assists predominantly by passing to a spot on the floor where his teammate is supposed to be, not because he has good passing skills, court vision, or anything else. If anything, he gets assists the way slashing wings get them, not the way typical PGs do: by driving, drawing another defender, and kicking out to a teammate. Getting assists that way (and merely by swinging the ball sometimes) doesn't make Harris a PG in my book.

Does that mean that since Devin isn't a "typical" PG that he's not worth keeping? Absolutely not. It just means he can't do for this team what a more typical PG could do, and that, IMO, is what 90% of the guys on this team need.

-= original quote snipped =-
DDansby, I know where you are going with this but one thing I think the Mavs could be lacking if they land Kidd is a good atheletic finisher. If the Mavs do make a trade for Kidd, I would love to see them pickup someone who loves to run the floor and plays above the rim. Those guys are a dime a dozen so it shouldn't be too difficult to get one.

We're going to be lacking athleticism one way or another, and I've argued for two years that we needed to get more athletic. But that's not really the issue...

The appropriate question is: would Jason Kidd be less effective passing the ball to Dirk Nowitzki and Josh Howard than he is passing it to Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson, simply because the former aren't as athletic as the latter?

(For what it's worth, I don't think that's your actual argument.)

Uh oh, you said it. Be prepaired for the page long wrath he gave me! We agree, but since we are not on his page, he will write a page about why he feels he should not repond to you, but does. Apparently, having someone to finish Kidd's plays is a non-factor as Kidd is supposed to make our current players into those type of players. We just don't know it yet because we are ignorant to what a true PG is supposed to do as we have not had one on our team for a while.

This pretty much ignores every statement I've made here.

[DDansby123]

I like the Vince to Dallas trade too. Realize Vince is also a pretty good passer, so pairing him with Harris is still going to generate open looks for other players.

I was surprised (kind of) by his passing ability, and that is sorely needed here in Dallas.

But he's also still a horrid defender, and I really worry about the team's defense with Carter and Dirk on the floor together. Additionally, that would mean that Josh would have to defend the opponent's best offensive wing, which I really don't think he's up for.

Something else a bit concerning is that Carter's more of a jumpshooter this year. He's getting to the line less and shooting perimeter jumpers more (though fewer 3's). He's 31 and has based a lot of his game on athleticism. Sound familiar? (Hint: think Finley and Stackhouse) I'm not saying Carter will suddenly turn into an aging vet who settles for jumpers all the time...but that does worry me given his age, history, and the statistical changes this year from last.

[JES12]

I agree it reminds me of Finley and Stack, but if everyone is saying we must win this year, Carter would be a good piece to aquire at the right price.

What I have been saying all along was upgrade Stack to Carter using Hassell to match salaries. Sure, the Nets lose out talent wise this year, but Stack & Hassell expire in 2 years as opposed to Carter who expires in 3 years if we opt out on his team option. In that 3 year span they save $28 mil. Also, Stack and Hassell are smaller, easier to move contracts or cheaper buyouts if they decide that's what they want to do.

I can even see Dallas adding a 1st. If Avery can squeeze out defense from Stackhouse and Nowitzki, I'm sure he can squeeze out D from Carter.

[JES12]

If we did not waive Finley via amnesty, KG or Kidd would be a Mav right now. It irks me to think about it.

[Teffer10]

MavsFan40, I say Harris isn't a PG because...well...I don't think he is. He gets his assists predominantly by passing to a spot on the floor where his teammate is supposed to be, not because he has good passing skills, court vision, or anything else. If anything, he gets assists the way slashing wings get them, not the way typical PGs do: by driving, drawing another defender, and kicking out to a teammate. Getting assists that way (and merely by swinging the ball sometimes) doesn't make Harris a PG in my book.

Does that mean that since Devin isn't a "typical" PG that he's not worth keeping? Absolutely not. It just means he can't do for this team what a more typical PG could do, and that, IMO, is what 90% of the guys on this team need.

-= original quote snipped =-



This pretty much ignores every statement I've made here.

Actually, my point is that Kidd would become the obvious leader of this team and instead of having a roster full of old veterans to provide leadership in support roles, the mavs would be better off with atheletic and skilled support players. If we added some athletic bench players or a SG that can get up and down the floor, it will be accommodating Kidd's strengths. With Dirk and another good outside shooter, Kidd would create for everyone and they would all be playing at their strengths. Much like Nash with the Suns.

I'm a little back and forth on a possible Kidd trade (if Harris is involved), but I don't see us winning the title with the current roster. Kidd is a difference maker imo. Lack of leadership in the POs has been the biggest issue on this team and Kidd would certainly be the solution to that problem.

[DDansby123]

-= original quote snipped =-
Actually, my point is that Kidd would become the obvious leader of this team and instead of having a roster full of old veterans to provide leadership in support roles, the mavs would be better off with atheletic and skilled support players. If we added some athletic bench players or a SG that can get up and down the floor, it will be accommodating Kidd's strengths. With Dirk and another good outside shooter, Kidd would create for everyone and they would all be playing at their strengths. Much like Nash with the Suns.

Great point; I hadn't looked at it that way. I mean, I had in terms of leadership, but not how Kidd's presence would lessen the need for guys like Jones and Stack.

There are some young guys out there who can really defend, are athletic, and can run and jump with the best of them. We need some guys like that....if we have someone on the floor to lead them. If we did somehow land Kidd, I'd like to see some small follow-up moves, perhaps involving spare pieces or first-round picks (assuming we have anybody left to trade).

I'm a little back and forth on a possible Kidd trade (if Harris is involved), but I don't see us winning the title with the current roster. Kidd is a difference maker imo. Lack of leadership in the POs has been the biggest issue on this team and Kidd would certainly be the solution to that problem.

Exactly. Though I don't know that it's really a lack of leadership. It's a poor mix of talent; it's talent that doesn't mesh well together. It's talent than can't create shots for teammates, and when we play a team that's active defensively, it's that much more difficult. Kidd doesn't solve all those problems, and he may create some others, but he does, IMO, go a long way to solving a few of our biggest problems. I just don't want to have to give up the world to get him.

I'm on the fence about whether/not to include Harris. I know he's good. And I know if he goes somewhere else where he can be a scorer, he'll be damn good. I just don't know if he's the right guy to lead THIS team. If we could somehow deal Devin and Terry, keep Bass, and give up whatever else we needed, I'd like to get Kidd and a SG back in a three-team deal. That's probably a stretch, but oh well.

[Teffer10]

I think most of us on this board have the same feeling about Harris. Everyone seems to agree that he will be a great player but the arguments seem to be when and where.
Many feel that he is already there.

However, I think his progress is more gradual and will not be all-star material until he is in his late 20s. By then Dirk and Howard will be too old to help carry this team. The biggest problem that I have with Harris is his age. He is too young to carry the team on his shoulders now and it will be difficult to build around him later because we will be too good to get any high draft picks for the next 4 or 5 years. I like Bass, Barea, and R. Terry, but realistically, I don't see them as ever becoming anything other than role players.
Therefore I see it this way, either trade Harris to get a proven mature player to lead a team that has the Mavs best player in Franchise history to a championship, or keep Harris and try to win it all but trade Dirk for young players and draft picks after this season if it doesn't work out.
It doesn't make much sense in taking the path that we are with Devin right now.
That is why I am teetering on a Kidd deal.

[JES12]

And that's were we are different. Dirk is 29 and has at least 3, at most 7 years left. His role will be slowing down like Duncan's has, but I think Howard, Harris, Bass is a young core that can be major factors in those 3-7 years and who know what trades we may be able to make with players like Dampier, Hassell and Stackhouse in 2009-10 when they all expire. Or Terry in any of those years.

I really don't see why people think our windo is 1-2 years. Who cares that Porland, and to a MUCH lesser extent, Seattle, is up and coming. Many up and coming, talented teams don't pan out. Many never reach the mental maturity. But if we trade Harris for Kidd, our window WILL be 2 years and in 10 years we will be talking about trading Harris being our biggest mistake next to trading Kidd many tears ago.

[arkuo]

howard isnt really all that young.. if i remember correctly, he's what, 27 or 28? so in my book, he's on the same boat as dirk.. bass and harris are the true young ones this team has, and neither of them, in my own honest opinion, has the ability to carry the team to a championship once dwight howard, lebrons, chris paul, roy and oden mature with them... harris and bass would grow up with that batch of players and i honestly dont see dallas with enough star power to topple those guys... unless we get so lucky and draft consecutive all-stars with the final few picks of the 1st round every year (which we have been stuck with for quite some time now)....

[DDansby123]

I think most of us on this board have the same feeling about Harris. Everyone seems to agree that he will be a great player but the arguments seem to be when and where.

Exactly. If he's asked to be a passer, he'll be a better-defending version of Tony Parker. If he's asked to be a scorer, he'll be a better-defending version of Gilbert Arenas. Either way, he really needs a sidekick who can handle the ball with him in the backcourt to be most effective. But I think we all know which one he'll more likely be in Dallas.

However, I think his progress is more gradual and will not be all-star material until he is in his late 20s. By then Dirk and Howard will be too old to help carry this team. The biggest problem that I have with Harris is his age. He is too young to carry the team on his shoulders now and it will be difficult to build around him later because we will be too good to get any high draft picks for the next 4 or 5 years. I like Bass, Barea, and R. Terry, but realistically, I don't see them as ever becoming anything other than role players.

I agree. The hope for some, like JES (as best I can tell), is that Devin will improve enough to effectively "cancel out" the lack of improvement or decline of Dirk and Josh. To me, that's a recipe to "break even" and that's exactly what we've done (statistically) over the past three years. The offense and defense are basically exactly the same statistically as they were three years ago. We're treading water.

That means, to me, that we need a shakeup. Hell, make Devin the FOCUS of the offense for all I care, but something has to change, and some personnel changes have to be made.

Therefore I see it this way, either trade Harris to get a proven mature player to lead a team that has the Mavs best player in Franchise history to a championship, or keep Harris and try to win it all but trade Dirk for young players and draft picks after this season if it doesn't work out.

I don't know that trading Dirk is the answer. Statistically, and as JES has argued, Devin and Howard are (at least) equally valuable to this team right now. If we're willing to trade Devin, why not be willing to trade Josh? See if we can package Josh, picks, and whatever else to get a wing who's more of a creator (for his teammates) than Josh is. That type of player would certainly fit better with Dirk and Devin than Josh does. Then find a wing to defend the opponent's best player.

That's the San Antonio model, and if we're trying to turn Devin into Tony Parker, why not follow that lead? OR, go out and get a true PG and leave everything else pretty much the way it is (with some minor tweaks).

It doesn't make much sense in taking the path that we are with Devin right now.

Agreed.