We might be "soft" but I love our team

[Koosh]

I know we're considered to be a "soft" team by NBA standards and that some of you guys think we need to add toughness and attitude to our lineup. While I understand that argument, especially when our guys get roughed up by teams like Boston and Detroit... I don't think that adding guys that contrast the team's personality is a good idea.

Personally, I love the fact that we have a bunch of polite, down-to-earth and good-character guys on our team. I know we're heavily influenced by American media and we share a similar in-your-face, ego-driven, individualistic culture but is that really who we are? We've had tough players in the past and we've had our share of out-spoken guys but in the long term that hasn't gotten us anywhere. We've had a history of internal turmoil within the organization and all those players eventually left the team because, to be frank, they didn't care. They didn't care about our city, they didn't care about the fans and they didn't really care about the team.

I read that 1,000 game article in the National Post last week and it had some really interesting quotes.

But most of all, Toronto got one ill-advised, behind-the-back pass per game, a few incidents during shootaround - Game 394, he punched the Clippers' Jeff McInnis, and Game 452, bouncing a basketball off the head of Philadelphia's Tyrone Hill, both of which he was suspended for. When asked if he let the team down after the McInnis suspension, Oakley shot back, "I don't think I hurt the team. I think the league hurt the team by putting it in Canada."

"I remember the first time they announced [in 1993] they were going to have expansion teams in Vancouver and Toronto, we were like,

[Koosh]

One more thing... I know BC gets criticized all the time for selecting Bargs over Roy but I really think Bargs is the right guy for this team. I hate to beat a dead horse but Staudemire, Camby, TMac, and Carter didn't stick around and even though they had "their" reasons, you can't deny the fact we've had a hard time keeping Americans stars on this team. Hopefully Bosh and TJ are the exception, but the fact still remains that drafting a guy like Roy doesn't guarantee he'll be a franchise player and stick around for as long as we need him. More money and a big American city could easily screw us over with someone like that but if Bargs develops into the player he's suppose to become; I could see him playing his whole career in Toronto.

[TheMainEvent]

I agree with you that the Raptors have a good-personality team. We have a bunch of well-spoken, polite, nice dudes. And I appreciate that. I personally like the fact that we didn't start a little scuffle over the TJ Ford thing, etc.

But toughness doesn't always mean bad-personalities.

Sure, there are the Ron Artests, Reggie Evans, Charles Oakleys, etc. but if you look at a team like the Pistons, who are arguably the 'toughest' and grittiest team in the league, I'd say they have a good bunch of personable guys as well, except for maybe 'Sheed. San Antonio is a fairly tough team as well, but they have some of the nicest guys in the league with Duncan, Bowen, etc. Boston has become a defensive-oriented and tough team this year, and while Garnett may swear a lot, while Paul Pierce may have been in a fight at a night club years ago, and while Ray Allen always has a snotty cocky look on his face, they're all decent guys.


Edited to respond to your second post:
I just wanted to point out that people haven't really left the Raptors because it's a Canadian team, in quite a while. VC made a remark about not getting ESPN up here, but overall, he LOVED Toronto while he was here. He just started getting annoyed when we started to bash him for his laziness and injuries... and when our management/coaching was incredibly inconsistent.

Damon Stoudamire states all the time that he enjoyed his time in Toronto and that it was a great city. He didn't mind the whole Canadian thing while he was here. It's a common misconception that he asked to be traded because he didn't like Canada... but he asked to be traded because our franchise was wack and the organization had just gotten rid of Isiah Thomas, who Stoudamire had a good relationship with. Upon leaving on a bad note, he made a remark or two about preferring the States though, which is where the misconception comes in.

TMac said he liked Toronto as well, but he left because he felt our management and coaching didn't treat him right. He got jealous that Carter was getting all this hoopla and attention, while TMac had to take a backseat. He left Toronto because he knew VC was our cornerstone, and he knew he'd always be a second-fiddle player behind his 'cuz.

The only player I can remember that really didn't like playing for Canada was Steve Francis. I remember him having this disgusted and sad look on his face when the Grizz drafted him, haha.

The Raptors haven't had a hard time keeping Americans on this team. The Raptors have had a hard time keeping ANYONE on this team. The Raptors franchise is still fairly new, and the first 8 years or so were horrible. We were getting all the srubs and all the unwanted players from other teams. It's not like we've had any international players here for more than 3 years, so I dont think you can make an assumption that international players want to stay while Americans dont. Our longest running players in franchise history are all Americans. Granted, there are hundreds of more Americans than international players, especially earlier in the franchise history... but MoPete, Alvin Williams, Chris Bosh, Vince Carter, etc. lead the franchise in games played n such... and they all loved Toronto while they were here.

[Fairview4Life]

Soft teams don't go into Boston, drop 114, and win. They don't shoot atrociously, get behind by 15 to the defending champion Spurs, and come back to make it a game. One of the hallmarks of this "soft" Raptors team is that they come to play every night as much as, if not more, than every other team in the league. Some nights they might play poorly, but they never stop playing hard.

[BigBob13]

Well said, I really do think this team really represents the vision of BC had when he looked at Toronto as a whole. He saw what he had in place and where he was and tried to build on that. I personally am enjoying the product. I know it's nowhere close to finish but it certainly is better than it was a few years ago.

The multicultural aspect of the team, the quality team first players, the lack of egos all fit into the culture of winning that he wanted instilled from the get go. I think this team fits Canada as a whole because of the attitude we do have both on the court and off the court; we're well respected, intelligent and from all parts of the globe. It fits the "tossed salad" rather than the "melting pot" view of societies.

As for Bargnani, I really do believe he will be a special player and I have no regrets that BC took him #1. You're right, he's on the team that will give him the most to succeed and giving him the environment to do so. He will stay here because he knows that he is wanted here.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

Can we please do ourselves a favour and get past the idea that is an accomplishment for us just to have a team of good guys and focus on success and continual improvement focused on the goal of winning the championship. It's as much the culture of losing that drives free agents away as much at the fact that it is not an American city. BC is addressing both those things, he saw fit to change the culture of the team and bring winning expectations and he's made it clear that he feels Toronto will be more attractive to players not from the US who have to get used to playing in another country anyway.

I'm not saying we need to go out and get knuckleheads, but if we see an area we are lacking we should address it. Teams know they can play our big guy physically and be successful. That's what will happen in the playoffs. For a pf he's not very physically dominating. That doesn't mean he sucks or we should trade or waive him, but it means we need to get better as a team in those situations. We don't need a "tough guy" for the sake of having a "tough guy" but we could use more grit, rebounding and better perimeter defense. And also the media fuels into the persona issues of those who are known to have issues and often ignore the ones who aren't widely known to have those issues. Do I wish we had a Oak on the roster, yes. How did Bonner, Mr. Nice Guy, achieve his crowning glory at the ACC? bodying Garnet. For playing a little "No layups." I think, some of you, if we had a guy who was a little on the edge and played a bit dirty, you'd be defending him just as much as you defend us now for not having him, because you feel the need to disagree with any comment having a negative connotation, because the Vince thing may have you feeling our players will leave if we criticize them. If you want more, demand more. Leaf fans have been suffering this for years. Look at what Smith said BC is looking for right now, a 6'9 gritty small forward who can rebound and defend the perimeter. He's not looking for the excon catering squad from house party 3. And the reason he's looking for that is because that's what we need. We don't need another guy to volunteer for meal on wheels, although that would be a bonus. If that guy is Ron Artest, well there's a whole new set of pro's and con's.

and Re: Bosh, he could stand to try to be a little more physically imposing or I worry he may have a big drop off later in his career. If he loses that quick step, what's he got? a feathery jumper? He doesn't really impose out there. He could use a little mean streak. not a cop killer mentality, but more of a balance, more aggression. some players get roughed and respond by killin' it. I'd like to see more of that in Bosh. But, if not, he's an all star, brings it consistently, helps us win games and has been a great player for us. Can't dispute what he is, but it is fair to hope for improvement from the team and org.

[HumbleBumbleBee]

I really sick of "this American players not wanting to come here" crap...I really don't give a flying fcuk! I don't want to pay money to see a bunch of guys who dont want to be here...BC is doing the right thing, go get guys who just want to play, it doesnt matter where they're from

[HumbleBumbleBee]

Im really sick of attitude that "this American players not wanting to come here" crap...I really don't give a flying fcuk! I don't want to pay money to see a bunch of guys who dont want to be here...BC is doing the right thing, go get guys who just want to play, it doesnt matter where they're from

[G-UNIT]

you know what im sick of?
losing games because were soft, how many games have we lost due to rebounding? at least 5!!!

[Fairview4Life]

you know what im sick of?
losing games because were soft, how many games have we lost due to rebounding? at least 5!!!

Which ones? Can you show your work?

[G-UNIT]

ok

* denotes games that could have been won due to rebounding issues.

If you count the games we get outrebounded and lose, then multiply the shooting % by the extra possessions, lets just say 50% for arguments sake. so for example 10 extra possessions, equals 5 extra field goals for the other team, so 10 or possibly 15 pts)

Nov 06 Toronto Milwaukee 85-112 out rebounded 45-32 Blowout
Nov 07 Orlando Toronto105-96 (Out rebounded 51-41) * (10 extra possessions for ORL)
Nov 14 Utah Toronto92-88 (Raps actually out rebounded them 50-46)
Nov 18 Golden State Toronto 106-100 (Out rebounded 47-46) arguable you can add this to the list of possible wins
Nov 20 Toronto Dallas99-105 (Out rebounded 41-40) Gave up big lead
Nov 24 Toronto Cleveland108-111 (Out rebounded 47-28) *
Dec 01 Toronto Washington97-101 (Out rebounded 38-36) *
Dec 05 Phoenix Toronto136-123 (raps out rebound suns 39-38) Blowout
Dec 07 Toronto Boston84-112 (out rebounded 44-32) Blowout
Dec 16 Boston Toronto90-77 (raps out rebound celts 45-32)
Dec 19 Toronto Portland96-101 (out rebounded 40-35) 5 extra possessions *
Dec 21 Toronto Seattle115-123 (raps out rebound sonics 39-35)
Dec 22 Toronto Phoenix103-122 (raps out rebound suns 49-41)
Dec 29 Toronto Houston79-91 (out rebounded 38-33)
Jan 04 Detroit Toronto101-85 (out rebounded 47-36) 11 extra possessions , but we cant beat detroit so i wont count this
Jan 06 Cleveland Toronto93-90 (out rebounded 52-33) 19 extra possessions, so YES *
Jan 15 Toronto Detroit89-103 (raps out rebound pistons 42-38)
Jan 19 Toronto Philadelphia95-99 (out rebounded 40-37) *
Jan 29 Toronto Washington104-108 (out rebounded 57-44) 13 extra possessions, so YES*
Feb 01 L.A. Lakers Toronto121-101 (raps out rebound lakers 41-40) Blowout
Feb 08 L.A. Clippers Toronto102-98 (out rebounded 45-33) 12 extra possessions, so YES*
Feb 11 San Antonio Toronto93-88 (out rebounded 46-34) 12 extra possessions, so YES*
[/b]

so thats 9 games they could have won had they even just matched the other teams rebounding #'s. So potentially instead of being 27-23, they could be 36-14, challenging detroit for #2 seed.

Im not trying to hate on the raps cuz theyre my team, but theyre soft and the rebounding is the major factor holding them up from being playoff team to elite.

IMO, peace!

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm not a Raps fan, although I want to see them do well since I was born in Canada before the Raps came along..I was checking the board out after my team played y'all yesterday..

I don't think Americans playing in Canada is a big deal at all..T-Dot is a great city, and that sentiment is echoed by a lot of players..I really don't believe it'll prevent the Raptors from signing anybody they need..money is always the main aspect..

Toronto is a much more attractive place to play than Charlotte, Cleveland, Indiana, Memphis, Milwaukee, Minnesota, NJ, Seattle or Utah..among other cities..

Carter still loves the city..I know Damon does, since it's been mentioned when he came back last night..cold isn't an issue, because these athletes are rich, and they are on the road half of the time anyways..they can afford to travel to a hot location any time they have free time..

[Fairview4Life]

Did any of that take into account the Raps and their opponents respective FG%?

For example, when the Raps lost to Orlando, they shot 38.2% from the floor. The Magic shot 50%. The Raps missed 55 shots. That's 55 available rebounds, + 1 more from a missed TJ free throw #2, + 1 from a missed Delfino free throw #3, and +1 from a Bargs missed free throw on an and 1. So, the Magic had 58 available rebounds on the defensive end, and they ended up grabbing 44 of them. That's 75.7% of their available defensive boards. The Raps grabbed 12 of 58 available offensive boards, or 20.7%. The rest can be accounted for end of quarter shots, or balls that bounced out of bounds or whatever.

On the other end, the Magic missed 38 shots, + 2 missed 2nd free throws. That's 40 available defensive boards for the Raps. They grabbed 29 of them, or 72.5%. The Magic grabbed 7 offensive boards, or 17.5%. The rest can be accounted for end of quarter shots, or balls that bounced out of bounds or whatever.

Obviously, if you look at the numbers, the Raps shooting so much worse from the floor had a much bigger impact on the game than the overall total rebounding numbers. Those rebound totals tell us next to nothing, unless they are put into context.

[G-UNIT]

i dont know how those numbers dont tell you anything, IMO, it emphasizes the fact that we cannot rebound the ball for the life of us, which in nba terms is soft.

[Fairview4Life]

i dont know how those numbers dont tell you anything, IMO, it emphasizes the fact that we cannot rebound the ball for the life of us, which in nba terms is soft.

...because the %'s were pretty much the same? +/- 2.5%? Hell, the Raps grabbed a higher % of the available offensive boards than the Magic did. The Magic had more total rebounds because the Raptors missed 18 more shots. It's not rocket science.

[G-UNIT]

You know whats not rocket science? The raps are soft, and they cannot rebound for the life of them. And if you think that rebounding has not cost them games, then i dont know what raps team your watching. I respect that fact that you have 14000+ posts, and i know you are well informed about the raps, but teams that play hard and give 100% can also be considered "soft".

Note: I want them to win just as much as everyone else.

[Fairview4Life]

You know whats not rocket science? The raps are soft, and they cannot rebound for the life of them. And if you think that rebounding has not cost them games, then i dont know what raps team your watching. I respect that fact that you have 14000+ posts, and i know you are well informed about the raps, but teams that play hard and give 100% can also be considered "soft".

Note: I want them to win just as much as everyone else.

...but they can rebound "for the life of them". In fact, they are the 10th best defensive rebounding team in the NBA. They aren't that good on the offensive glass, but neither are the Spurs, Magic, Suns, Lakers, Celtics, or a number of other good teams.

All you're doing is getting overly worked up because of one or two instances like Manu's offensive rebound at the end of the game last night when Delfino leaked out instead of boxing him out. That doesn't signify anything general about the Raptors as a team though. Which is where you're trying to spin this.

The Raps lost that Orlando game because they weren't shooting well (due to just being off, or Orlando's tough D, or whatever you want to ascribe that too). Not because of any perceived rebounding deficencies. I'm not going through your other examples, but I imagine most of them look similar. I'm sure there have been a few games where rebounding has been an issue. I'm not debating that at all. But that's the same for every team in the NBA, not just the Raps, and it's certainly not costing them as many games as you seem to think.

[G-UNIT]

im not getting worked up, im not the typical raptor fan on this board (im not 12 y.o. lol, i have a 12 y.o.!). All im saying is that theyre soft, im not saying they dont play hard, which they do.

[RapTelligence]

im not getting worked up, im not the typical raptor fan on this board (im not 12 y.o. lol, i have a 12 y.o.!). All im saying is that theyre soft, im not saying they dont play hard, which they do.

But you are acting like a 12 year old. Fairview has systematically destroyed your stat based argument and you are still insisting you are right.

[Joker]

Soft teams don't go into Boston, drop 114, and win. They don't shoot atrociously, get behind by 15 to the defending champion Spurs, and come back to make it a game. One of the hallmarks of this "soft" Raptors team is that they come to play every night as much as, if not more, than every other team in the league. Some nights they might play poorly, but they never stop playing hard.

We're not soft in the effort and perserverance department.

We're simply just not as big, strong, and athletic as a lot of other teams, and they subsequently physically punish us.