Defensive Pride

[Duffman100]

The last 3 games have been TERRIBLE for our defense. No communication, no grit, and no pride. We double without a plan, the weakside seems to have no idea when/where the double team is coming from.

Bosh and Calderon specifically have been putrid. I know, I know, they are our best players, they keep us in games, blah blah... But if we are going to go to the next level, from mediocrity to excellent, we need these two guys to have defensive pride.

Scream all you want on the offensive end, everyone in the league wants to score. We need someone who gets in people's face when they miss a defensive assignment, a rotation, or flat out gets beat.

Oakley, Artest, Mutombo etc, these guys didn't just play defense, they MADE everyone else play defense. Our team needs a player who infuses defensive enthusiasm into everyone else, and it starts from the top.

If Bosh wants to be Duncan or Garnett, he has to start caring on the defensive end, becuase right now...Bargnani is looking like a better defensive big than Bosh. And that hurts.

[MikeM]

Excellent point. I've been thinking this for a while. You can add all the "defensive wing players" you want but if Bosh and Calderon still suck on D, we won't get anywhere.

[Fairview4Life]

The last 3 games have been TERRIBLE for our defense. No communication, no grit, and no pride. We double without a plan, the weakside seems to have no idea when/where the double team is coming from.

Bosh and Calderon specifically have been putrid. I know, I know, they are our best players, they keep us in games, blah blah... But if we are going to go to the next level, from mediocrity to excellent, we need these two guys to have defensive pride.

Scream all you want on the offensive end, everyone in the league wants to score. We need someone who gets in people's face when they miss a defensive assignment, a rotation, or flat out gets beat.

Oakley, Artest, Mutombo etc, these guys didn't just play defense, they MADE everyone else play defense. Our team needs a player who infuses defensive enthusiasm into everyone else, and it starts from the top.

If Bosh wants to be Duncan or Garnett, he has to start caring on the defensive end, becuase right now...Bargnani is looking like a better defensive big than Bosh. And that hurts.

Bargs looks like he could be a better defender, someday, probably 3-4 years from now if Bosh doesn't improve at all. But right now it's not particularly close.

Jeff Van Gundy during the Spurs/Celtics game after Pierce hits a jumper over Bruce Bowen: "everyone talks about wanting a great defensive player, but give me a great offensive player everyday of the week. I can teach him to defend.".

Larry Bird at a basketball camp. The kids came in and there was an older man at the other end of the gym shooting around. Larry to the kids (paraphrased): "See that guy? I played against him in college. Best defender I've ever seen. He never played in the NBA. Now let's go learn how to shoot.".

When Bargs gets up to speed (and he will, it's just a matter of time, repetition, and recognition), then a lot of the Raps defensive problems will disappear.

[Duffman100]

[quote="Fairview4Life"][/quote]

I disagree, the last 3 games Bargs has played decent to good defense and we've looked terrible. Bosh has been beat almost every time he was isolated. Our guards are getting torched. Why did Ginobli have 15 rebounds yesterday? It wasn't Bargnani not rebounding and boxing out Duncan, it was our guards and Bosh not boxing out on the perimeter.

[Spragga]

I know alot of people have been harping on moon but to me AP and Chuckfino have been bigger problems defensively than him. AP is simply not even close to being the defender he was last year. Were gonna need a 2 and a 3 that is a respectable defender.

[Fairview4Life]

I disagree, the last 3 games Bargs has played decent to good defense and we've looked terrible. Bosh has been beat almost every time he was isolated. Our guards are getting torched. Why did Ginobli have 15 rebounds yesterday? It wasn't Bargnani not rebounding and boxing out Duncan, it was our guards and Bosh not boxing out on the perimeter.

Why wasn't Bosh scoring everytime he beat Oberto 1 on 1 yesterday? Because he was angled right into Tim Duncan. Bosh can't do that with Bargs. Bargs is solid one on one. But that isn't all that important when it comes to defending the paint in the NBA. Bargs doesn't know where to go, or recognize when to go, when he has to help. Bosh is a hundred times better at that right now, which is why he's currently a much better interior defender than Bargs. It's not close. And Bosh isn't terrible, like you seem to be claiming.

[Duffman100]

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Why wasn't Bosh scoring everytime he beat Oberto 1 on 1 yesterday? Because he was angled right into Tim Duncan. Bosh can't do that with Bargs. Bargs is solid one on one. But that isn't all that important when it comes to defending the paint in the NBA. Bargs doesn't know where to go, or recognize when to go, when he has to help. Bosh is a hundred times better at that right now, which is why he's currently a much better interior defender than Bargs. It's not close. And Bosh isn't terrible, like you seem to be claiming.

Have you not been watching lately? Where has Bosh been on the weak side? He has missed SO many rotations its not funny. Yesterday I counted at least 6 in the second half...him and moon alone accounted for about 10 wide open shots in the second half because they refused to rotate properly.

And I'm sorry, Bosh shouldn't need Bargnani to help on Thornton, Oberto, and Gomes...when Bargnani is guarding Kaman, Jefferson, and Duncan. Sure it would help, but Bosh should able to handle those guys on his own without needing weakside help.

[Fairview4Life]

Have you not been watching lately? Where has Bosh been on the weak side? He has missed SO many rotations its not funny. Yesterday I counted at least 6 in the second half...him and moon alone accounted for about 10 wide open shots in the second half because they refused to rotate properly.

And I'm sorry, Bosh shouldn't need Bargnani to help on Thornton, Oberto, and Gomes...when Bargnani is guarding Kaman, Jefferson, and Duncan. Sure it would help, but Bosh should able to handle those guys on his own without needing weakside help.

Have I been watching lately? Right back at you there, big fella. Oberto scored a whopping 6 points on 7 shots. Gomes? An amazing 4 points on 5 shots. Yes, Thornton is a crazy athlete who was able to beat Bosh consistently off the dribble when he was isolated on the perimeter. He scored a lot because Bosh was getting no help.

It's Bosh's responsibility to help on everyone else. Like when our wing players get destroyed by whoever the Raps are facing. As well as keep track of his own man. Bosh is a hell of a lot better at that than Bargs right now. That's why he's a better defender.

[Duffman100]

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Have I been watching lately? Right back at you there, big fella. Oberto scored a whopping 6 points on 7 shots. Gomes? An amazing 4 points on 5 shots. Yes, Thornton is a crazy athlete who was able to beat Bosh consistently off the dribble when he was isolated on the perimeter. He scored a lot because Bosh was getting no help.

It's Bosh's responsibility to help on everyone else. Like when our wing players get destroyed by whoever the Raps are facing. As well as keep track of his own man. Bosh is a hell of a lot better at that than Bargs right now. That's why he's a better defender.

And the multiple missed rotations yesterday? And the game before that? And the game before that?

How many pick and rolls with Giniboli yeterday where Bosh refused to step up and allowed the wide open jumper? How many pick and rolls, when Bosh was on the weakside, did he let slip for wide open layups? the answer? Many.

I said he was making Bargs LOOK like a better defender. One on One, Bargs is the better defender. Bosh is the better help defender. And considering its his second year, Bargs is well on his way to becoming a better defender than Bosh.

People are blinded by Bosh and his amazing ability. I love him, but I'm sorry, he's an atrocious defender who doesn't box his man out. He needs to step up this summer and work on his defence.

Yes, Thornton is a freak athlete, but take a step off of him...make him shoot the jumper.

[Joker]

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Bargs looks like he could be a better defender, someday, probably 3-4 years from now if Bosh doesn't improve at all. But right now it's not particularly close.

Jeff Van Gundy during the Spurs/Celtics game after Pierce hits a jumper over Bruce Bowen: "everyone talks about wanting a great defensive player, but give me a great offensive player everyday of the week. I can teach him to defend.".
.

Is your thesis that offensively-gifted players are more preferable than defensively-gifted players, or that Van Gundy should be our coach?

[Fairview4Life]

And the multiple missed rotations yesterday? And the game before that? And the game before that?

Not many.

How many pick and rolls with Giniboli yeterday where Bosh refused to step up and allowed the wide open jumper? How many pick and rolls, when Bosh was on the weakside, did he let slip for wide open layups? the answer? Many.

Not many.

People are blinded by Bosh and his amazing ability. I love him, but I'm sorry, he's an atrocious defender who doesn't box his man out. He needs to step up this summer and work on his defence.

I'm not blinded by anything. If you think Bosh is an atrocious defender, you are ignorant of defense in the NBA. That's fine, but your opinion certainly isn't going to be changing mine.

[Antoine_Wright21]

In my entire life have i never seen such poor defensive effort.

I know personally, when **** up on offence, i try hard as hell on defense. Unlike some of our players who will not only miss a shot on offense, but be scored upon by a friggin rookie on the other end.

Be a man, have some pride. If i were a raptor when Kobe dropped 81, he wouldn't have come out of that court without at least one broken bone.

[Fairview4Life]

Is your thesis that offensively-gifted players are more preferable than defensively-gifted players, or that Van Gundy should be our coach?

I like Sam, but this is a pretty stupid quote: "You can't teach defense".

Obviously that's out of context and he was more referring to effort on D and the glass. At least, I hope.

[Duffman100]

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I'm not blinded by anything. If you think Bosh is an atrocious defender, you are ignorant of defense in the NBA. That's fine, but your opinion certainly isn't going to be changing mine.

Not many? You clearly did not watch the game yesterday.

I'm not ignorant, its a difference of opionion genius. honestly, watch the game in an hour and focus on Bosh and where he's suppose to be.

[Fairview4Life]

Not many? You clearly did not watch the game yesterday.

I'm not ignorant, its a difference of opionion genius. honestly, watch the game in an hour and focus on Bosh and where he's suppose to be.

I watched the game in 2.5 hours, and noticed that Bosh was where he was supposed to be a hell of a lot more than any other Raptor on the floor, with the exception of Rasho.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I dunno what you're seeing, duffman. This isn't a difference of opinion at all. Fairview is right. Bosh was the team's second best defender yesterday after Rasho. There were plenty of guys who got benched by the 4th (or earlier) for not being where they were supposed to be on defense. Moon, Humphries and Andrea were the key guys in that regard and it had nothing to do with bias against their youth unless you mean bias against their poor defense due in part to inexperience.

[Duffman100]

I dunno what you're seeing, duffman. This isn't a difference of opinion at all. Fairview is right. Bosh was the team's second best defender yesterday after Rasho. There were plenty of guys who got benched by the 4th (or earlier) for not being where they were supposed to be on defense. Moon, Humphries and Andrea were the key guys in that regard and it had nothing to do with bias against their youth unless you mean bias against their poor defense due in part to inexperience.

I feel like I'm going crazy here. I was watching the game with 2 friends who know a HELL OF A LOT about basketball and we were all seeing the same thing.

On pick and rolls, where Bosh's man was involved, he was shading back allowing the easy jumper off the pick.

When he wasn't involved on pick and rolls, he wasn't rotating when the big (usually Bargnani or Nesterovic) cut off the dribbler and screener slipped the screen and cut to the basket.

Not to mention that he refuses to put his body on people when he goes for rebounds. But thats not just him, thats the whole team.

[Duffman100]

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I watched the game in 2.5 hours, and noticed that Bosh was where he was supposed to be a hell of a lot more than any other Raptor on the floor, with the exception of Rasho.

But that's comparing bad defensive players to worse. Yes, he probably was where he was suppose to be more than anyone else. But who's better? Moon is a terrible team defender, AP has really fallen off, Calderon's defense is laughable, Delfino is decent at time, Bargs can't see past his own man, Humphries is slow on the weak side, Kapono tries shooting on his own net.

Just because Bosh is one of the better defenders on the team, doesn't mean he is a good defender. He is not, and well below average.

[Fairview4Life]

Just because Bosh is one of the better defenders on the team, doesn't mean he is a good defender. He is not, and well below average.

You, and your friends too I guess, are wrong.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I think you just have a misunderstanding of what the Raptors are trying to do on defense. Bosh was almost always what he was supposed to be doing. There were a few times when he got beat (which happens to every defender) though not all that many. I've noticed a pretty major trend on this board to blame Bosh when he looks bad for being in the right place when another part of the defense breaks down. I haven't paid perfect attention to every play defensively but whenever I focus in on Rasho and Bosh for a given play they usually seem to be doing what they're supposed to be doing. Andrea is another story entirely. Bosh is actually supposed to be doing a lot of the things you suggest he's doing wrong and that's why there's a pattern that you're noticing.

As an example, I also think Antawn Jamison is another guy who gets an undeserved bad rap defensively for similar reasons (although Bosh is a better defender than Jamison). Rafer got in a fight with Mitchell over his not wanting to look bad on defense when the defensive breakdown actually happened elsewhere no the court so there are definitely player willing to play that way if need be.

I'd also like to voice my agreement with fairview that offensive talent usually supercedes defensive talent simply because there are more players with the ability to learn defense. If a player has the ability to learn the offensive game and is already a great defensive player then they'll also make it in the league, but usually offense is the first thing players want to develop so if it's undeveloped it's usually not for lack of trying.