ORL vs CLE game thread FEB 11 2008

[MagicStarwipe]

Dwight is saying all the right things... now he just needs to try actually doing it.

True, but Stan needs to get it together too IMO. Dwight has a valid point.

[lovehoops01]

I haven't read any of this thread yet, but I can honestly say that I haven't been so disappointed in the Magic in a loss since T-Mac's last season here. This was a winnable game, and the Magic just let it get away because some of them didn't play hard enough (not all, but some). The starters worked hard to get out to an 8 or 10 point advantage, and the bench came in and gave it up in about 2 minutes.

I heard on the postgame what Van Gundy had to say. I don't even want to participate in that debate because the Magic are going to have a hard enough time dealing with it and the media attention it will draw without the fans chipping in and taking sides. I love Dwight, but he did not give us what he is capable of in tonight's game. He wasn't the only one, but it was clear to everyone in the arena and Dwight's teammates because the players kept trying to pump him up and pull him back in. I didn't know what was bugging him.

I felt bad for a couple of the guys -- I'm not going to say who because I don't want to cause a separate distraction about that -- but a couple of the guys were getting the crap beat out of them driving to the basket trying to score to keep the Magic in the game while others coasted through the game.

I am very frustrated because I just want the team to win. They went into this game 32-20 and atop the Southeast Division. Dwight is among the league's top 20 scorers and is tops in rebounding. He said he set a goal for himself to lead the league in rebounding but has been seeing his rebounding numbers fall off the table and I guess that doesn't concern him. If that's going to remain the case, then the Magic will have to go out and get someone who wants to help fill in the gaps on the boards. A lot of other guys have been contributing nicely and getting a little recognition. Dwight is starting in the All-Star Game for the first time. I would think that would make them all happy.

Instead, though, it looks like they're going to let all their hard work unravel. All the talk around the team is about how J.J. doesn't get enough playing time, who should be traded and who they need instead. And now, apparently, the star and coach aren't on the same page -- meaning we apparently need to be wondering if we are going to hire our fifth coach in five seasons, who it is the entire team actually will want to play for or whether our star player is going to start demanding a trade. It all makes you just want to stop watching the NBA.

[taruky1]

howard is the best offensive player on this team by far. he is the only player that ever draws any attention on offense. he scores the most points. shoots the most FTs. and is the most efficient scorer. nobody doubles hedo or rashard. they even let them shoot wide open threes from time to time and the big men are so worried about dwight they don't even come over to challenge their shots. i have no problem with hedo and rashard playing off dwight but can you not give howard 14 or 15 shots a game. i think he'd be quite happy with that. you don't have to run the offense through him every play. its those games where you see him with only 8 or 10 shots that piss him off. really is there a reason for him to drop like 10 or 15 point in one quarter and then ignored the rest of the game?

This goes back to the point that has been made several times here. He goes to the line almost 6 times a game. When you look at that like a shot, he averages the most shots of anyone on the team. We're not even going into the number of times he gets fouled before the shot. I think the 4th quarters leave a lasting impression in people's minds about Dwight not getting the ball. And in reality, with his awful free throw shooting and limited passing/post moves, I'm not sure I want the ball in his hands during a tight game.

[TooNice00]

howard just needs to be consistently involved on offense. that is all. its not like he is asking for a complete turn around of him getting the ball every play. just give him some more shots. it isn't that complicated. yes he gets fta's but that is still not excuse. everyone from people on this board, to our own announcers, and the announcers of our nationally televised games see this problem.

[magicmamma]

FFBlitzace and Adam the Greek said it right. Dwight's getting the ball about as much as he should. He's been getting lazy on defense, and SVG has hardly complained about it. Dwight's our franchise player, a captain, the guy who gets all the attention, and with that comes responsibility. He's not going to be the leader he says he wants to be until he deliberately leads by example. Everyone knows about our record when Dwight gets 3 or more blocks. That shows that when Dwight gets serious about defense, the rest of the team does too. When Dwight doesn't play defense, the defensive efforts of the rest of the team are not very productive.

The quotes Starwipe gave from Dwight after the game were clearly repeating what SVG said to him. Dwight knows what he has to do, but it takes some maturity to be able to do it. He'll get there.

[Hairy Midget]

I think this will be a turning point for the team, and a good turning point at that.

[MagicStarwipe]

I think this will be a turning point for the team, and a good turning point at that.

I'm not so sure. Maybe if Van Gundy sees Dwight's point of view. He should realise Dwight isn't getting the ball enough on his own though, so I'm a little worried.

[Hairy Midget]

-= original quote snipped =-



I'm not so sure. Maybe if Van Gundy sees Dwight's point of view. He should realise Dwight isn't getting the ball enough on his own though, so I'm a little worried.

I bet they both see each side of each other's arguments.

It'll be fine.

[flyingvee]

I think whats also being missed is how all these scrub SG's or even ones that are having bad seasons like Hughes, consistantly go off and torch us. And the argument is that JJ doesn't play because he's a liability on defense. HUGHES 40 POINTS So what, he'd have gotten 60 or 70 if JJ was guarding him? At worst, it would be no good for JJ to give up 40 while scoring 20 but it's ok to give up 40 like Evans and Bogans and only score 10 in return.

[Devin 1L]

I've been content with his number of shot attempts the entire time he's been with us. The success rate of a Dwight Howard post up is not as high as you might think it is reading this board. Very rarely does he face anything other than a double team. Sometimes it creates a shot off a double team. Sometimes. But just as often he holds it until the shot clock is running down and then we have to rush something. And when he actually takes the shot himself, which sometimes is a complete force against a double team, it's usually something wild. That step-into-the-lane hookshot he's got going on is ugly. Sometimes it bangs in, but usually it misses badly. When he drives baseline, it's usually an offensive foul or he steps out of bounds. If he actually passes those hurdles, he usually just gets wrapped up and sent to the line where he shoots under 60%.


I don't mean to sit here and just bash his offensive game, or Dwight in general. Anything this Magic team accomplishes over the next half decade will be because of him, and I'm depending on him just as much as anybody else. I'm just saying that I understand not giving him the ball every trip down at this point in his career. I just honestly don't think it would be better to do that every trip down than, say, letting Hedo attempt to create something every once in a while. Or letting Rashard try to score. Which is another thing. Rashard is averaging fewer shot attempts than he has in a long time. And this guy is probably the best pure scorer on our team, he has a legit argument for more shots if he wants to make an issue over it.

Dwight would get his points if he focused on the defense and rebounding. Like I said before, he averaged 12 a game his rookie year while pretty much never touching the ball. It was all putbacks and opportunity baskets. And Dwight's much better now than he was then. He could get 20 a game that way, very efficiently. And he would still draw attention. Even when he doesn't touch the ball he draws attention. You have to keep an eye on him, because if a weak defender is on him 1 on 1, he can just overpower him and dunk. So it's not like he has to take 20+ shots and score 30 a game to draw attention and clog the lane for shooters. And it's not like he would never see a postup. He'd still get the ball the same amount he gets it now, which is reasonable. If a team came along that didn't double, give him the ball and he'll score 30+ like he has done many times this year against teams that have decided to defend us differently than most teams. But it rarely happens when teams do that, and it's only going to get rarer (if that's a word).

And let's not forget how many points per game this team is averaging. We're one of the highest scoring teams in the league. Very rarely is the offense an issue for this team. Dwight's averaging over 20 points per game, most on the team, the team is averaging well over 100 per game, and he doesn't want to play defense because he's not happy with the offense? Obviously it's not that simple, but when you break it down like that, it hardly seems like this should even be an issue.

Sure, the entire team needs to pick it up defensively. But he's the anchor. He's the leader, the star. There are role players and there are stars. Stars exist because they do things role players don't. Role players are role players because they're not as good as stars. If he wants to be a role player, we'll void his max extension and give him Jameer-type dollars instead. But that's not happening, so play like the star you claim you want to be.

I had to quote this post because:

a) I think it's the longest post I've seen you make.
b) I completely agree.

I think this will be a turning point for the team, and a good turning point at that.

Honestly, I think the same thing.

I'm sure some might expect a fall-out, and all that doom and gloom stuff, but I'm not worried. I think this will be good for us.

If anyone should be upset, it should be Marcus Camby and the Nuggets.

I bet Dwight has a monster game on Wednesday.

[lovehoops01]

-= original quote snipped =-



didn't we just come off a stretch where we won 5 of 6 or 6 of 7?


A lot of us were saying that we were back at that point.....

we've lost 3 out of 4 to good teams.

Lakers
Cavs
Mavs


Were still sitting in a very good position with an easier schedule to finish out the year...

I'll believe that when I see it. The schedule was supposed to get easier after January. And they just keep throwing top 7 teams at the Magic. Next Denver. After the all-star break, Detroit. Yeesh....!

[mattyBoi]

I haven't read any of this thread yet, but I can honestly say that I haven't been so disappointed in the Magic in a loss since T-Mac's last season here. This was a winnable game, and the Magic just let it get away because some of them didn't play hard enough (not all, but some). The starters worked hard to get out to an 8 or 10 point advantage, and the bench came in and gave it up in about 2 minutes.

I heard on the postgame what Van Gundy had to say. I don't even want to participate in that debate because the Magic are going to have a hard enough time dealing with it and the media attention it will draw without the fans chipping in and taking sides. I love Dwight, but he did not give us what he is capable of in tonight's game. He wasn't the only one, but it was clear to everyone in the arena and Dwight's teammates because the players kept trying to pump him up and pull him back in. I didn't know what was bugging him.

I felt bad for a couple of the guys -- I'm not going to say who because I don't want to cause a separate distraction about that -- but a couple of the guys were getting the crap beat out of them driving to the basket trying to score to keep the Magic in the game while others coasted through the game.

I am very frustrated because I just want the team to win. They went into this game 32-20 and atop the Southeast Division. Dwight is among the league's top 20 scorers and is tops in rebounding. He said he set a goal for himself to lead the league in rebounding but has been seeing his rebounding numbers fall off the table and I guess that doesn't concern him. If that's going to remain the case, then the Magic will have to go out and get someone who wants to help fill in the gaps on the boards. A lot of other guys have been contributing nicely and getting a little recognition. Dwight is starting in the All-Star Game for the first time. I would think that would make them all happy.

Instead, though, it looks like they're going to let all their hard work unravel. All the talk around the team is about how J.J. doesn't get enough playing time, who should be traded and who they need instead. And now, apparently, the star and coach aren't on the same page -- meaning we apparently need to be wondering if we are going to hire our fifth coach in five seasons, who it is the entire team actually will want to play for or whether our star player is going to start demanding a trade. It all makes you just want to stop watching the NBA.

Talk about an end of the world post. This one is classic

[lovehoops01]

-= original quote snipped =-



I'm starting to agree with you. I didn't watch the game does anyone know why dooling didn't play? If nelson and arroyo were guarding hughes and he put up forty you would think at some point SVG would give dooling a shot at guarding him.

Keyon was on the inactive list for this game. They said before the game that he has a sprained midfoot and is likely to miss Wednesday's game, too. What is it with our guards and their feet?

[SD2042]

The Magic got Denver on Wednesday. It won't be easy with AI and Melo to deal with.

[lovehoops01]

Good for Stan, that sent a message to every player on this team.

No, it really didn't. They say that they can't do stuff like that and that they have to learn from their mistakes, but those are just words. I know they know the right things to do. Unfortunately, they just choose not to do it some nights.

[lovehoops01]

-= original quote snipped =-



Hedo has been getting hit and he hasent gotten a single call.

I didn't bother mentioning that one of the refs in this game was one of the guys who reffed the Suns game when Dwight got six offensive fouls called against him -- because the Magic (as a team) didn't play well enough to get many fouls called for them.

[Bold&Blue]

LeBron gave props to Hedo.

Hedo definitely has my vote for most improved player in the league. In my eyes, he is an All-Star.

[Typhoon20]

About Hedo, I disliked his effort on D last night, he wasn't playing smart or hard. When he plays hard and focused D he can defend pretty well, like he locked down Pierce in the 2nd half. But last night, he pissed me off. Sure he didn't guard Hughes all the time, but when he did he left him wide open. He does that a lot, he wants to help his teammates and cover for them but then he leaves his own man open and that's a big hole.

I also kinda disliked Nelson, he shot as much as anyone else and he had less assists then Turk, 4 assists on 5 turnovers isn't exactly a pretty thing. At times I wanted Arroyo in the game (which isn't saying much) but Nelson at times just plays too much 1 on 5, takes the ball waits for 15 seconds and when the shot clock is about to expire he forces the bad pass or takes a forced shot, combined with his lack of D it really made things tougher for us.

About Dwight, finally ! I've been one of the first people who mentioned this like a month ago. People kept b!tching that Dwight needed more touches (which I agree with) but, they forgot that we were 7-1. If we're winning and Dwight is taking less then 20 shots a game in that stretch, it would be pretty irrelevant to bring that up. And now, Dwight is getting more touches, he's getting more selfish and thus Magic are what 1-3 ? I just can't understand the fans that keep saying Dwight needs more touches. If he wants to get 20+ touches a game, he needs to improve his offensive game, period. You can't ask for that many shots or to be regarded as the main offensive weapon when you don't have a jumpshot, no post-up moves or when you shoot for 50% from the FT line. Dwight has as much moves on offensive as Foyle, maybe he's more finesse. Ok I exaggerated a bit, but you get my point. I hope it's not his ego that's on the rise. I'm sounding a bit harsh, I'm actually one of the people that thinks Dwight should get a bit more touches, but not just for the sake of it. Sometimes we don't make the smart move on O, Nelson or Dooling will force a shot, in those cases I'd like Dwight to get that shot. But I don't want him to get more shots just cause he feels like it. Dwight needs to realize that he needs to improve on his offense, improve on his J, add some more post-up moves to his arsenal etc. if he can improve on his FT and bring that up to 70 he's going to DOUBLE his shots, he'll take like 30 a game. Stan would probably want that too. Y'all blaming Stan as if he's out there blaming him cause he feels like it, no Stan is a smart man. He sees the potential and Dwight and sometimes young players tend to drown in their own shadow, that's when you need a good coach to shake that up. Pau Gasol should not have outplayed him like that, if Dwight had played some good D on Gasol we would have won the Lakers game, so offense isn't everything, especially when you have the leagues best defensive beast in the game. That's my beef with the whole Dwight situation.

Having said that, we got some bigger problems, bigger then the absence of Dwight's D. Our lack of consistently defending the opposite guards well. Evans didn't give any effort, Nelson got torched, again, Bogans Dooling etc. all failed to defend. It's inexcusable when Hughes gets 40 points. It's usually the opposing teams guard that torches us. People keep saying we need a PF but I seriously think we need a point guard first. Slide Battier to the 4 when he returns, Lewis and Turk share the 2/3 and (maybe a Miller trade, in my dreams though) Andre Miller at the point. That would be a sick line-up. You can't penetrate against that, so you gotta take jumpshots all day long, and even then we've got some scary long arms that's going to make it tough for opposing teams.

[MagiChamps]

^^ I agree with most of that. I wouldn't rip on Dooling though he didn't play. No way Larry Hughes would have put up forty with Dooling guarding him.

[lovehoops01]

I disagree that Evans didn't play hard. He didn't shoot well compared to what he has been doing, but I thought he played hard. That guy picked himself off the floor after getting hammered a bunch of times.