I have a hard time getting over this...

[pughead]

I always read the "If only we drafted Chris Paul" threads and always rolled my eyes. I remember thinking even during that draft that we had to take a shot at the player who had the biggest upside. My stance at the time was if we took Chris Paul and Marvin fulfilled the potential many thought he had, we would be looked at as "The Team Who Passed Up Marvin Williams".

So when the countless threads about Paul come up my attitude was always, "quit whining; live in the now".

That was until the fateful game a few weeks back when we lost to Portland and Brandon Roy took over the game.

Since then, I can't help but wonder where this team would be had we taken Roy instead of Shelden Williams. It's hard to shake and now I understand how the Chris Paul advocates felt.

The way Roy is playing, he'd be our starting SG and we could have moved Joe Johnson for some very nice pieces to complete this franchise. We may even have been able to afford resigning Josh Childress where now everyone on the board pretty much agrees we should trade him even though we all pretty much like what he brings as a 6th man.

Sigh. It just sucks because this team and this town has such potential. I truly believe Atlanta is just dying to LOVE the Hawks. I don't typically dwell on what could have been but damn, this one hurts. (sorry to be so dramatic about it)

[Master8492]

Well, they've been the 7th seed for some time now and fans are still scarce at the arena.

[reazun]

yeah, I dont think we would have traded Joe though. I think Roy would be a backup and not given the chance to shine like he has in Portland. I doubt BK would trade Joe after the whole Belkin thing.

[td00]

How many times have you seen the ball in Roy's hands at the end of the game? Answer: almost every time. He is considered their future and for good reason.
Now, I am and have been critical of BK and his decisions because to me, it does sound like he is the final decision maker for any transaction. I thought the Shelden thing was a disaster at the time, and I do see what BK was trying to capture and that was a defensive force to stop the floodgates on our bad interior. BK just chose the potential of the best big man available at that time, and if he had any trade talk, it sure didn't come together.
To me, Roy and JJ could have played in the same backcourt. There would be many mismatches in my opinion, and I just thought with all the weaknesses we had, you should take the best baller available. Shelden wasn't it, but don't be surprised if he flourishes more once he is away from Woody's doghouse....example: Boris Diaw. We tried to force Diaw to be a PG, so now you see how mismanaged we were at the time. But, for the Hawks' argument, I would not have given Boris the contract that was given to him by the Suns. That was a lot of money for him.
The jury is still out on a young Marvin, but it is hard to imagine he is going to rotate with Smoove and Horford for minutes. There seems to be one too many bodies there. Horford s/b be a PF in the near future.

We do need to get something for what players we do have, and we would be better suited to move a PG or 2, and get one player in return. We already have 4 PGs on the roster, and they don't exactly complete the one position we are in need of. Does anybody have ANY interest in any of them? Probably not much, except for expiring reasons.

I'll continue to be critical of BK, especially when dealing with the draft picks, but it could be worse. We could have Isaiah here making comments like he did today: 'We put ourselves in this hole, and we have to dig our to get better' We? That's funny!

[Rip2137]

Every single time this comes up I say the same thing. If we had drafted Brandon Roy, he would have come out, not been the guy controlling the ball, would have shot a bad percentage, turned it over some and never have seen the court again. Then his injuries his rookie year would have confirmed it.

At the same time, Sheldon probably would have went to Seattle and got PT at the PF position, averaged a double double and everyone would say "We needed a big but instead we drafted ANOTHER guard with the skill set of Joe Johnson" and BK would have been a moron.

Undeniables: When he played over 25 minutes as a rookie, Sheldon Williams averaged over 10 points and over 10 rebounds per game. Is he going to be a allstar? No. Is he going to be a just below allstar caliber star? No. But he is going to be a solid pro for someone one day.

Brandon Roy looks as good as he does because as soon as he came out, Nate McMillian gave him the team and played him over 35 minutes a night. There were some nights he would have 4-5 turnovers, but he was still the guy they gave the team to.

What have any of you seen in Mike woodson that would make you believe that he would do that for any rookie, let alone one that got injured alot his rookie year. Al Horford would not have gotten minutes at the start of the year had Zaza been healthy. Part of me still thinks that he would be a 20 minute per night back up PF if Zaza had been able to start the season and give us his usual 12-13 points a game and bad defense. Injuries cost him his minutes and allowed Horford to clearly outplay him.

Here we have a coach that has never shown the ability to utilize his teams strengths, has young players on a notoriously short leash, and has a love affair with Joe Johnson that he just can't quit, no matter how effective other players on the team are being at any given time.

All of a sudden he was going to give major minutes to a shooting guard with playmaking abilities and take the ball out of Joe Johnsons hands(which would have had to happen for Roy to be as effective). As a basketball fan, I am happy we didn't take him. We would be calling him a bust and I would have missed out on the great basketball he has played because he would be towel waving with salim, mario and Solo right now.

[jagstang76]

Rip, I didn't agree with you before on another post concerning Woody, but I do now. I totally agree that he has mismanaged the young talent on this team. It couldn't be helped with Smoove and Chill because there wasn't anyone else. But Diaw was a dismal failure, Sheldon and Salim have been shackled to the pine, and Law has barely seen the floor. Maybe he got it from Brown, but it's certainly not helping this team to not give players a chance to thrive.

I wanted Roy very badly for the Hawks instead of Sheldon. I remember being in a hotel room just livid when they announced the pick. Roy should have been playing next to JJ sharing point duties. He could have given JJ a break and taken the 2 while another PG came in to run things. We would have had a sick backcourt that, had we still ended up getting Horford, would have meant an extremely versatile and exciting starting lineup. I don't worry as much about the whole Marvin vs. Paul thing because I can at least see that Marvin is playing well and still has room to grow. But I have a very hard time with the Sheldon pick.

[JoshB914]

I think you can make the arguemtn that Roy would be pressed for time here (although I disagree completely). But you cant for one second act like Shelden would be succesfull in another system. He just doesn't have the ability to cut it in the NBA.

If I had to choose between JJ and Roy I'd take Roy in a heartbeat

[dms269]

Rip, I agree completely. If Shelden is given consistent real minutes (not consistently 5 mpg), he produces. People says he sucks when he is on the court, but that is because woddy feels he can't do anything so he puts him in for 5 minutes after 3 straight dnp and we expect him to beast it up?

[EddyCurryJoshSmith0502]

Rip, I agree completely. If Shelden is given consistent real minutes (not consistently 5 mpg), he produces. People says he sucks when he is on the court, but that is because woddy feels he can't do anything so he puts him in for 5 minutes after 3 straight dnp and we expect him to beast it up?

Shelden Williams blows period he is not better then Paul Milsap or Craig Smith both second picks. I dont care if you give this guy 48 minutes a game he still cant play a lick of defense watever happen to the two time college dpoy. The guy has no low post moves and just wants to shoot jumpers all day. Any Hawks fan who wants to sit here and defend the Shelden Williams is one screwed up fella. Remeber we guarnteed this guy the 5th overall pick cause he was going to be our anchor down low and he was the nba most ready player he flat out sucks. He will be out of the nba in 3 years.

[Lue_4_MVP]

I can see Sheldon being successful in Houston playing off of Yao Ming, or in Seattle playing with a huge chucker in Durant like he did at Duke. However, the notion that a player would only be successful in certain situations is a sign of a below-average player.

Roy on the other hand, is not a below-average player; he is a star. Stars like Roy find ways to contribute to a team no matter what. I'd take him over JJ anyday - he's way more of a team player.

[LL Cool Scott]

WOW. WOW. WOW.

Shelden Williams supporters still exist!

[conleyorbust]

WOW. WOW. WOW.

Shelden Williams supporters still exist! :rofl:

Crazy.

Rip, I see what you are trying to say and agree that Woody probably wouldn't have helped player development as much as McMillan but its a question of upside. Shelden at his very best is a limited role player, Marv at his very best is an all-star two way player. Paul is a leading MVP candidate this year and is easily the top point guard going into the next decade and Roy is already a franchise guard. Whether or not those two would be as good as they are now isn't the question, they'd be better than the players taken instead of them.

[pughead]

I wanted Roy very badly for the Hawks instead of Sheldon. I remember being in a hotel room just livid when they announced the pick. Roy should have been playing next to JJ sharing point duties.

I agree completely. Furthermore, I think the same reason I gave BK a pass (no pun intended) on not taking Chris Paul is the same reason I'm so pissed about Brandon Roy. When your franchise is a perennial basement-dweller, you don't draft pieces. You go for the best available player period.

[Rip2137]

People that stay on me for being a Sheldon supporter. How can you really deny that he put up a double double when he played over 25 minutes as a rookie? I mean, you can't just deny a stat because you feel like it. I am not talking about he kinda put up numbers. No. He DID. He got benched for not taking fouls around the basket and trying to stay on the court. He hasn't really seen the court since.

Hell, he played strong when Zaza was injured earlier this year and has never seen the court again since.

So please give me one justifiable reason to think that a guy that averaged a double double with X number of minutes wouldn't do it if he got X number of minutes somewhere else (and he probably would have ended up at Seattle) besides just wanting to say "Well, he sucks". Now I think his cap as a career would be around 12 points and 10 rebounds and he would never get much better than that, but he has proven he can produce in the NBA.

[HoopsGuru25]

Rip the reason people don't take Shelden's numbers at the end of last year seriously are because they were in games in which the Hawks and many teams we were playing against were tanking. I also recall Salim looking good during some of those games and he sucks. Shelden got those numbers primarily against players like Ike Diogu,Dan Gadzurich,Jared Reiner,Leon Powe,etc and while half our team was hurt as well. The only problem the Hawks have made in regards to Shelden is not trading him while he still had decent value after winning Rookie of the Month. If Shelden was losing minutes to Lo Wright in the middle of last year..logic would tell you that he would get even less minutes after we drafted Horford. Another blunder by BK that alot of us saw coming..refusing to trade Zaza or Shelden while they still had value.

[conleyorbust]

Rip, I think Shelden is better than he has shown this season. I really do.

Now, its fallacy to think that "since he got X playing Y minutes, if we play him Y minutes he will get X". He got the minutes because he was being productive, not the other way around.

People rip on the Shelden pick because Shelden was billed as a ready to rock big man who could defend and play the post. He turned out to be a bad defender and post player, he can't finish well and has terrible hands. Even when he plays well these things are true. Atlanta fans knew what his limitations were and we thought it was a waste of a valuable asset (the number 5 pick) to take him like that. We also knew that there were other players who were better than him (Roy, Gay, Foye) and players that filled a need (Rondo would have been nice). For some reason though Woody fell in love with Shel.

I have a big problem with the fact that Woody used a high lottery pick on a guy that probably wouldn't have been taken in the lottery and he didn't trade down to get another peice out of it. That is just stupid. Teams wanted Gay, teams wanted Foye, teams wanted Roy. They would have traded for them, they did trade for them.

Woody's sub patterns haven't helped Shel, thats fair. But everyone thought he was going to be limited when he came in and, suprise! He is a limited basketball player. Roy is a better player regardless.

[HoopsGuru25]

I noticed Rip is still supporting drafting Shelden over Roy and still using the same lame arguments. Rip if you haven't noticed...great guards need the ball to be effective. Saying Roy couldn't be effective on the Hawks is as dumb as saying Arenas or Wade couldn't be effective on the Hawks. Only a BK supporter would be mad at adding a player who is talented enough to create his own offense.

Just curious...Rip would you swap Shelden for Dwyane Wade if given the chance?

[Rip2137]

Not supporting the pick. they should have traded down if they wanted to get Sheldon and gotten some more help for the team with that deal. Instead they took a guy at 5 who could have been there at 10. hell, they could have traded with Seattle to get one of their points and still have gotten Sheldon. It was a bad draft pick. But I am not in the Shedon is a bust camp because I think he has shown the ability to be a very solid rebounder at the NBA level and a opportunistic scorer. Woody wanted him to play like a free agent rookie energy providing big man and I am pretty sure anyone that watched sheldon play knows that he wasn't going to be that.

But just saying SHELDON OVER ROY completely ignores the undeniable history of our coach giving rookies a chance. Under no circumstances would Roy be given the opportunity to play like he has played in Portland had he come to the Hawks. Unless a massive rash of injuries happened, and Roy was pretty injury prone himself his rookie year. He wouldn't have played. Yes it is easy to look at a guy that was featured as the lead of the franchise from day one and say "SEE!!!!!" But Roy would not have been handed the franchise from day one here. Roy would be regulated to spot up shooter here (not his strength) and certainly wouldn't have the freedom to be the man an create and score at will. That still would have been Joe with the ball. Roy would not have been able to shine.

As I said before, Woody didn't want to play Horford this year. As soon as Zaza got back he was ready to drop him on the bench next to Sheldon. The guy simply is not a fan of the young guys. This would not have changed if he had Roy. He would have been seen as a streak shooting guard with some handles.

No Sheldon isn't a better player. He is never going to be a better player. But once again I ask you, what about Woody makes you suddenly think that he would go against his PROVEN and DOCUMENTED trends. Especially when said player would stop him from running his favorite style of give the ball to Joe no matter if he is playing like crap and let him go score.

Once again, fire the coach and then the Roy pick would have made sense. With THIS coaching staff, it really wouldn't have made a difference. We could have had a great player on this team from a late first round team wanting to trade up, but instead we got Sheldon. That is why it is a bad pick. Not because we should have taken a better player that wouldn't have been able to get on the court because our coach is a idiot.

I do think that there would have been nothing he could do to prevent Chris Paul from becoming a star though.

[JoshB914]

Rip brings up an important point in the Shelden fiasco. We should have and could have traded down, but when someone leaked that we were going to take him two weeks before the draft we lost any leverage. The pick was bad enough, but the fact that we took him at #5 when he wasn't projected to go until at least #11 made it even worse.

I just don't see how we can defend Shelden. He put up numbers last season against teams that were tanking. He's an awful man defender, has no offensive skill whatsoever, and an above average rebounder. I don't need these per 40 minute stats, when you watch him play you can tell he is not cut out for this league.

[HoopsGuru25]

Rip you are wrong again..

1. Shelden was a wasted pick because he was not the BPA and didn't fill our biggest need at pg. Trading down made sense if he planned on taking Williams/Lowry/Farmar/Rondo because those players would actually be drafted to fill our biggest need. BK turned down two trades for Nene and didn't even attempt to get Chandler. Common sense tells you that you go BPA in the draft and then try to get a big in free agency.

2. Roy would have started on the Hawks. Do you honestly think Woody wouldn't have started him if he was clearly better than the people he was going up against? Common sense says Roy starts alongside JJ in the backcourt being that he's far superior to Speedy/Lue/AJ. Even if Roy wasn't the pg...he would have taken Marvin's starting job last year.

3. Even when Horford came off the bench(briefly)this year he played 30 minutes per game so the argument that he didn't want to play Horford is lame. Even Woody isn't dumb enough to keep a rookie off the court who is CLEARLY better than his competition just as he's doing with Horford.

4. You failed to answer my question...would you or would you not trade Shelden for Wade if given the chance and do you think Woody is actually dumb enough to start AJ over Wade at pg? You also ran and never came back to the other Roy/Shelden thread a month ago when I showed you that Miami drafted Wade because he was the BPA despite having a max contract player at SG and a promising 2nd year player at SF just like the Hawks should have done in 2006 with Roy.