Another version of team meeting

[jerrod]

Highly rated? In what sense?

in the sense that is was ranked pretty highly amonst nba teams, especially prior to the injuries


i forget what exact place it was

[El Duderino]

-= original quote snipped =-



What is your frickin' obsession with "shots"??? It's not that difficult to figure out why he's not getting more towards 14-18 shots a game like the star big men in this league, he has absolutely no game outside of the paint.

When Bogut goes in and is hitting his baby jump hook in the lane one game, teams will start to adjust, double team, deny him the ball. Now, if Bogut had a face up game and a mid range jump shot, he could adjust and step back and go to that, or a little fadeaway jump shot, he doesn't have any of that.

Look at Tyson Chandler. He only gets 8 shots per game and scores 1 less point per game then Bogut. When Chandler gets it low, he's very effective, just like Bogut, just like most competent centers who can finish around the rim. Why doesn't Chandler get more shots?? Because he doesn't have a game outside of the lane.

Look at Dwight Howard. He averages 1 more shot per game then Bogut. Wait, why doesn't Howard get more shots Orland fans ask? SVG must be an idiot! No, He doesn't have much game outside of the lane. Guys like Duncan, Garnett, Bosh get more shots per game because they have more of an arsenal.

As I've said before, we aren't playing against chairs. I suppose if we were, going to Bogut in the low block would work most of the time. Unfortunately, we're playing against people. Those people are basketball players who are told by their coach to keep Bogut away from the basket because he's not effective unless he gets it low. I'm sorry, but that's the reality.

That's what frustrates me so much about Andrew, if the guy had any ability to shoot the ball, he'd be so much more effective.

I watch other high quality bigs who have diverse offensive skills and it's so obvious why they are more consistent and effective. They can score close to the rim in post ups. They score facing up their defender either by hitting a midrange jumper if the defender sags or take him off the dribble if the guy crowds him. They score from 8-12 feet away by catch with their back to the basket and hitting either turn around jumpers or just quickly rising up and nailing that short jumper. They make free throws.

Defenders have multiple things to worry about regardless where these scoring bigs catch the ball simply because they can shoot. Bogut could shoot in college, gets to the pros, and suddenly his jumper turns into a Gadzuric brick. What the hell happened? Over these last three years his midrange jumper and post up jumper should have been improved on from what it was in college, how does it instead regress so badly to the point teams dare Andrew to take it?

I'm just at a loss to understand how Bogut could come into the NBA with a jump shot that was considered above average for a center and three years later Andrew can be 10-12 feet away with a defender sagging way off him and Bogut won't consider taking the shot because he rarely can make it. It's baffling to me.

[paul]

so mo is selfish, and a moron because he thinks the team should go back to it's highly rated offense instead of of this abomination?

Did you say highly rated? Is there a team in recent memory who have won anything playing an offense even remotely close to that? The only one I can think of is GS last season who did quite well, but they have a hell of lot more talented players in those areas than we do.

I would have thought virtually everyone was in agreement that to contend for anything in the future this team had to move away from that offense and develop some form of inside out game, but maybe I was wrong.

BTW I said I DON"T think Mo is a moron, which is why I questioned his motivation. I don't think any player could possibly think last years offense is the way for this team to build into a contender.

[jerrod]

you're not thinking about this like a player


their job is to win, to win you have to score and that offense last year got us more points and more wins than this one

[paul]

you're not thinking about this like a player


their job is to win, to win you have to score and that offense last year got us more points and more wins than this one

I agree with that, which is why I place a hell of a lot of blame on the coach. It's the coach's job to build a team into a contender, and this coach has been charged with the task of building a young team into a future contender. Which is why reverting to an offense that is never going to win anything in the future is a ridiculous move. If this team was capable of winning now and that offense was effective then fine, but it's not. But here's an idea, let's develop a triangle offense for the future, then scrap it, then go to our young big very effectively to develop an inside outside game, them scrap it, then revert to an offense that didn't work for the previous two years, cause that's the way forward.

What I will say is that if our 25? year old starting pg believes that the way to build this team into a contender is to revert to a guard driven offense and scrap any thought of an inside outside game, and then accuses the most unselfish player on the team of being selfish for wanting to continue developing it, well that's a worry. No it's stronger than that, if that is the case then for the first time I truly want him gone.

[BuckFan25226]

The anti-Bogut brigade are getting back in gear already? That was quick.

Unfortunately you feel that because someone doesn't think Bogut is as good as you think he is, they are "anti-Bogut" or a Bogut hater.

[ReasonablySober]

What is your frickin' obsession with "shots"??? It's not that difficult to figure out why he's not getting more towards 14-18 shots a game like the star big men in this league, he has absolutely no game outside of the paint.

When Bogut goes in and is hitting his baby jump hook in the lane one game, teams will start to adjust, double team, deny him the ball. Now, if Bogut had a face up game and a mid range jump shot, he could adjust and step back and go to that, or a little fadeaway jump shot, he doesn't have any of that.

Look at Tyson Chandler. He only gets 8 shots per game and scores 1 less point per game then Bogut. When Chandler gets it low, he's very effective, just like Bogut, just like most competent centers who can finish around the rim. Why doesn't Chandler get more shots?? Because he doesn't have a game outside of the lane.

Look at Dwight Howard. He averages 1 more shot per game then Bogut. Wait, why doesn't Howard get more shots Orland fans ask? SVG must be an idiot! No, He doesn't have much game outside of the lane. Guys like Duncan, Garnett, Bosh get more shots per game because they have more of an arsenal.

As I've said before, we aren't playing against chairs. I suppose if we were, going to Bogut in the low block would work most of the time. Unfortunately, we're playing against people. Those people are basketball players who are told by their coach to keep Bogut away from the basket because he's not effective unless he gets it low. I'm sorry, but that's the reality.

That's one hell of a great post and probably worthy of its own thread IMO. I like Bogut and he's one of the two guys I'd like to see the team keep. But He's certainly not shown to be worthy of the amount of shots that a lot of people around here would like him to get.

As soon as he finds himself a jumper or even just a second move, then the argument for him seeing more shots would be better.

[paul]

-= original quote snipped =-



Unfortunately you feel that because someone doesn't think Bogut is as good as you think he is, they are "anti-Bogut" or a Bogut hater.

I wouldn't use the term hater, but prior to January there was a strong contingent of anti-bogut folks on this board, and I sense a few who have been pretty quiet lately are speaking up a bit more since his recent dip.

As a side I liked a previous post of yours - just one thing I disagreed with

Look at Tyson Chandler. He only gets 8 shots per game and scores 1 less point per game then Bogut. When Chandler gets it low, he's very effective, just like Bogut, just like most competent centers who can finish around the rim. Why doesn't Chandler get more shots?? Because he doesn't have a game outside of the lane.

Chandler gets between 2 and 4 points a game directly of Chris Paul alley oops. The guy has little to no low post game, and it certainly isn't comparable to Bogut's imo, which is why he gets very few shots. Put him on this bucks team and he's lucky to average 8ppg, again just my opinion.

[ExTasDeeMan]

Trade Bogut. You all know it makes sense.

[El Duderino]

-= original quote snipped =-



Unfortunately you feel that because someone doesn't think Bogut is as good as you think he is, they are "anti-Bogut" or a Bogut hater.

Bogut is no doubt the hands off guy on this forum for many posters. People don't even have to rip on Andrew, just point out obvious flaws in his game and instantly that person just has to be a Bogut hater. As if it's not possible that Andrew could have any flaws to his game and if flaws are pointed out by anyone, it could only be because you or i hate him.

Hell, we could be all for trading either both Mo or Redd, even both of them and never once push to trade Andrew, but if we have the gall to not bow at the feet of Bogut at all time, it of course has to be out of hate for him.

I used to think it was annoying, now i find it funny. Like clockwork, i know without any doubt that if a poster or two has the nerve to point out any flaws about Andrew, certain other posters will be flying to the thread as if there is a Batman like Bogut signal in the sky calling all Bogut groupies to come and call out all these crazy "Bogut haters" who are so blinded by their Bogut hate that they won't blame his flaws on Mo, Redd, Stotts, or the current head coach.

[midranger]

I don't know how any one could seriously contend that our offense is better this year than last. The efficiency numbers certainly don't bear that out. Nor does the record. Just because it better fits what some people's (including my own) preconceived notion of what offense should be, doesn't make it good. Just because you favorite player had a single good month in this offense doesn't make it good.

One of our biggest problems this year has been the 12 point quarters that we love to throw in to ruin 3 solid quarters. That simply didn't happen last year. We didn't fall into prolonged offensive funks trying to force our square peg of a team into a round hole. That's whats happening this year

[blkout]

Bogut is no doubt the hands off guy on this forum for many posters. People don't even have to rip on Andrew, just point out obvious flaws in his game and instantly that person just has to be a Bogut hater. As if it's not possible that Andrew could have any flaws to his game and if flaws are pointed out by anyone, it could only be because you or i hate him.

Posts like this are just silly IMO. I can't speak for the other "Bogutphilles" or whatever Epi called us but I go out of my way to make sure I a) criticize his play when it's deserved and b) separate valid criticism from the LukePliska/ClassicJack style that seem more prevalent.

For every valid criticism of his game there are another 3 or 4 ridiculous over exaggerations made, and those are the ones that are generally pointed out by people who are shot down and labeled "Bogut lovers"... obviously there are cases where valid criticism is blindly attacked, but for me personally I make a concerned effort not to do that so it's quite insulting to see blanket statements like the above.

[ExTasDeeMan]

Is there any player on the team that everyone loves?

If the team was a winning team, who would be hated?

[El Duderino]

Bogut is no doubt the hands off guy on this forum for many posters. People don't even have to rip on Andrew, just point out obvious flaws in his game and instantly that person just has to be a Bogut hater. As if it's not possible that Andrew could have any flaws to his game and if flaws are pointed out by anyone, it could only be because you or i hate him.

Posts like this are just silly IMO. I can't speak for the other "Bogutphilles" or whatever Epi called us but I go out of my way to make sure I a) criticize his play when it's deserved and b) separate valid criticism from the LukePliska/ClassicJack style that seem more prevalent.

For every valid criticism of his game there are another 3 or 4 ridiculous over exaggerations made, and those are the ones that are generally pointed out by people who are shot down and labeled "Bogut lovers"... obviously there are cases where valid criticism is blindly attacked, but for me personally I make a concerned effort not to do that so it's quite insulting to see blanket statements like the above.

I've seen you many times point out things that frustrate you about Bogut and even call him out during certain games.

All i'm saying is that i can't remember the last thread about Bogut, even ones where the criticism is tame and people also bring up his much improved defense, where some of the Bogut groupies don't instantly start accusing those with the gall to say anything bad about Andrew as being a Bogut hater.

Hell, i've been called it and he's probably the last guy on the team i'd be willing to trade. Because though i won't blame his short comings on the other players and current/past coaches, that must mean i hate the guy and all i want to see is Mo/Redd shoot 50 times a game because of course, i hate Andrew and think he sucks.

[xTitan]

I've seen you many times point out things that frustrate you about Bogut and even call him out during certain games.

All i'm saying is that i can't remember the last thread about Bogut, even ones where the criticism is tame and people also bring up his much improved defense, where some of the Bogut groupies don't instantly start accusing those with the gall to say anything bad about Andrew as being a Bogut hater.

Hell, i've been called it and he's probably the last guy on the team i'd be willing to trade. Because though i won't blame his short comings on the other players and current/past coaches, that must mean i hate the guy and all i want to see is Mo/Redd shoot 50 times a game because of course, i hate Andrew and think he sucks.

So basically you are saying the Bogut fans are just like the Mo Williams fans now....makes some sense....i do not know one player on this team without flaws...it comes down to who you think can improve on those areas that need improvement and those who are doomed to be what they are.

The one player every Buck fan loves is Ramon Sessions

[xTitan]

I don't know how any one could seriously contend that our offense is better this year than last. The efficiency numbers certainly don't bear that out. Nor does the record. Just because it better fits what some people's (including my own) preconceived notion of what offense should be, doesn't make it good. Just because you favorite player had a single good month in this offense doesn't make it good.

One of our biggest problems this year has been the 12 point quarters that we love to throw in to ruin 3 solid quarters. That simply didn't happen last year. We didn't fall into prolonged offensive funks trying to force our square peg of a team into a round hole. That's whats happening this year

This is simple....no bench at all this year...

[midranger]

The one player every Buck fan loves is Ramon Sessions

Yeah, I like the "Bucks" who are not currently Bucks. I'm sick of pretty much everyone on the actual team.

[midranger]

if our goal is to develop this and that then stop talking about wining. But if we want to win then play like last year and stop talking about developing this and that

I don't care who, or if anyone actually said this (it was attributed to Mo in the OP), but it is absolutely true.


You can't develop players while winning. There are plenty of already developed players in the NBA to make sure of that. This all gets back to this team having no direction, which I will put 100% on Kohl. Any actual GM and/or coach knows that winning and develope likment aren't concurrent ideas. He likes who he likes, logic be damned. However, that does nopthing to change his expectations.

[El Duderino]

I've seen you many times point out things that frustrate you about Bogut and even call him out during certain games.

All i'm saying is that i can't remember the last thread about Bogut, even ones where the criticism is tame and people also bring up his much improved defense, where some of the Bogut groupies don't instantly start accusing those with the gall to say anything bad about Andrew as being a Bogut hater.

Hell, i've been called it and he's probably the last guy on the team i'd be willing to trade. Because though i won't blame his short comings on the other players and current/past coaches, that must mean i hate the guy and all i want to see is Mo/Redd shoot 50 times a game because of course, i hate Andrew and think he sucks.

So basically you are saying the Bogut fans are just like the Mo Williams fans now....makes some sense...

Actually, that is a decent comparison, except the venom thrown the way of Mo is much more harsh than anything at Bogut in most cases. What i don't get is often criticism in threads about Bogut is tame and even still those who say anything bad about Andrew have his groupies acting like people were saying Bogut flat out sucks and they want him shipped out of town ASAP.

No question though that i see people looking to defend Mo at times where it's not warranted, especially given he's done nothing at all to get better defensively which by far is his biggest weakness.

[paul]

-= original quote snipped =-




Actually, that is a decent comparison, except the venom thrown the way of Mo is much more harsh than anything at Bogut in most cases. What i don't get is often criticism in threads about Bogut is tame and even still those who say anything bad about Andrew have his groupies acting like people were saying Bogut flat out sucks and they want him shipped out of town ASAP.

No question though that i see people looking to defend Mo at times where it's not warranted, especially given he's done nothing at all to get better defensively which by far is his biggest weakness.

Not sure if this was about me saying some anti-bogut talk was starting up again Dude, but if so I tried to be clear that I wasn't calling anyone in here haters. There were however a few points raised which i found pretty ridiculous, like saying feeding bogut is the problem because when he gets 10+ shots we lose 63% of the time, even though in reality we have a losing rate of 64% (just one example, there were a few others). You'll never hear me cut someone down for making a valid criticism, but the overstatement that goes on on this board gets to me at times until i can't hold my tongue. I'm clearly a bogut supporter and have been a Mo and CV supporter in the past, but none of them are above receiving criticism as they are all anything but perfect. As far as bogut being the hands off guy, 2 months ago he was getting as much or more venom than anyone and still would be if not for his January.