Curtis Thigpen and Adam Lind

[dennistokyo]

The Jays are 5.5 games back with their wheels spinning. It's time to bring up both Thigpen and Lind and patiently let them be the necessary upgrades at their respective positions. 5 of Thigpens's last 7 games were multi-hit. Lind has hit safely in 8 of his last 10 with four multi-hit games. It's annoying to know that Zahn and Wilkerson are both starting while the prospects are aging in the minors.

[Peteros]

Lind was hitting the same before being called up to the big club. Look at what he did. Batted a stellar .053, going 1 for 19 at the plate in that span. That's not going to win you any games.

[dennistokyo]

How have his replacements been doing? And what's wrong with patience considering the time and draft pick invested in him? To give the guy only 19 at bats and then bring in two never-really-have-beens (one's already injured, and the other's batting, at the top of the order, of all places, a whopping .213) is insanely counter productive. When you're weak at a position (the Jays are weak in LF) and you have few assets to trade (the Jays have very few) you bring up your top prospect at the position and let him adjust. If this is the team JP's going with, and he has said that it is, then this guy's trying to get fired.

[Peteros]

This team cannot have any patience right now with the batting. It's enough that the team is struggling to score runs. Bringing in your prospects to help won't solve the problem short term.

The few assets are because of poor drafting over the years. This is why I think this is going to be JP's last year at the helm, unless the Jays do a complete 360 and win their division or wild card.

[Duffman100]

Upgrades would imply they're better.

I don't understand people's faith in our crappy minor league system. Thigpen and Lind will never EVER be anything special...

[The_Hater]

Lind got screwed over IMO.

He's a MLB quality player who has proven everything he needs to prove in AAA. So JP and Gibby announce that Lind is brought up for good and will play every day and that lasted barely one week before they reversed course completely and sent him back down. Way to screw with the kid's confidence. Yes 1-19 is bad but it's also an extremely small sample size. So Gibby throws Shannon Stewart back in the lineup and he was hitting .203 without any power, speed or defense at the time so what exactly was Gibby trying to gain? Which option has more upside? Stewart has a .723 OPS since he replaced Lind and is at .644 for the season. Aren't we lucky to have him...

As for Thigpen, he's just not very good. He was awful when called up last year and he's even worse in AAA this season. He might never see the majors again.

[dennistokyo]

This team cannot have any patience right now with the batting. It's enough that the team is struggling to score runs. Bringing in your prospects to help won't solve the problem short term.

The few assets are because of poor drafting over the years. This is why I think this is going to be JP's last year at the helm, unless the Jays do a complete 360 and win their division or wild card.

You make it seem like Shannon Stewart and friends are solving the short term problem. It can't be worse with the prospects.

[Michael Bradley]

Lind is definitely getting jerked around. He's already 24 and has nothing left to prove in the minors. He fills our biggest weakness (LHB) and he actually comes with some upside. Even if he doesn't pan out, what good is trying to catch lightning in a bottle with 3 guys who haven't been good in years (Stewart, Wilkerson, and Mench)? Just a very short sighted move. The main benefit for moving Thomas, other than avoiding his $10 million option next season, was freeing a spot for Lind. It didn't take Ricciardi long to replace Ohka and Towers with Marcum and McGowan last season, but he seems very reluctant to move Lind into the LF role for some reason. If/when Lind does get the chance, it'll probably be too late as far as the race is concerned (if it isn't already).

Thigpen is not very good, and he's already been lapped by Robinson Diaz on the catching depth chart. I wouldn't call him up unless he's killing the ball, and he clearly hasn't been. Diaz when he's healthy should get a look.

[Peteros]

This team is as good as it gets. There's a reason why Lind has been in the minors for so long. He had his opportunities over the years, and blew it IMO.

The Wells injury was a big blow for this team. It looked like he was coming around.

In defense of Stewart. He has been playing better as of late. Batting .303 in his last 10 games. I'd rather have him in the lineup now, then Lind.

Let's face it. This lineup isn't going to win you a championship. If by the half way mark this team is out of it, blow it up, get some prospects in return and rebuild.

[fliszt25]

Peteros, although I understand your arguments, I couldn't disagree with you more. If it is as you say, that the club isn't championship material, then don't you think that it is time to give Lind a chance? And a long term one at that?

Think of what happened with Marcum and McGowan of last year. Yes, they started paying dividends right away when the opportunity arose but before that, Marcum struggled in the bullpen and McGowan was extremely erratic. Thus, don't give up on the youngsters, especially someone who hits AAA pitching so well (Lind is still hitting .325 in AAA).

IMO Lind is a good enough hitter. He just needs to get over whatever demons he is having with MLB pitchers. It may just be a psychological thing where he can't get over being on the big stage. However, in the past, when he was first called up, he did show ability so I think that the organisation should let him develop FOR A LONGER TIME and conquer whatever issues he is having.

The problem of course is that JP thinks that we are still in a penant race and unlike you, he is deluded. So he goes out and gets Wilkerson and Mench to take over, as if they are going to 'push' us over the edge, well maybe the edge of a cliff.

Anyways, all I want from JP is a good draft this year. It seems that last year (and the year before) he FINALLY scored as the prospects are performing decently. Let's hope that this year, the good drafting trend will continue and that he will build towards the future.

[Peteros]

Peteros, although I understand your arguments, I couldn't disagree with you more. If it is as you say, that the club isn't championship material, then don't you think that it is time to give Lind a chance? And a long term one at that?

Adam Lind played 89 games last year, and batted .238

He was given a chance..

The Jays are not out of the race for the division and wildcard. It's still early. On paper this lineup is no contender, but stranger things have happened in the past. I like to believe, and there's always hope.

Think of what happened with Marcum and McGowan of last year. Yes, they started paying dividends right away when the opportunity arose but before that, Marcum struggled in the bullpen and McGowan was extremely erratic. Thus, don't give up on the youngsters, especially someone who hits AAA pitching so well (Lind is still hitting .325 in AAA).

I see your arguement about being patient, and giving a player time to develop in the majors and perform. The arguement about Marcum and McGowan is valid. Why not do the same with Lind you ask.

It is clear he has fallen off the favorite list of JP and staff. Maybe their patience is running thin with this guy. I don't know.

The problem of course is that JP thinks that we are still in a penant race and unlike you, he is deluded. So he goes out and gets Wilkerson and Mench to take over, as if they are going to 'push' us over the edge, well maybe the edge of a cliff.

Exactly! That's the problem.

Injuries haven't helped much either. This team has had bad luck with injuries over the years. It's hard to compete when your lineup is depleted.

Both of these signings have been a dissapointment so far. I would rather have Lind up here to develop, then have to watch Mench and Wilkerson play.

I think Lind will get another chance with the big club this season. But his time is running out. He's 24 and not getting any younger.

[The_Hater]

Adam Lind played 89 games last year, and batted .238

He was given a chance..

While virtually making the jump for AA ball at age 23.

Are you freakin' serious? Do we need to pull out the stats from Alex Rios first 2 seasons as a counterpoint to all this? (Lind's career OPS is virtually identical to Rios during his 1st 2 full seasons). Or look back at Carlos Delgado's first 2 seasons with the Jays? (batted under .200 combined)

Not every player enters the majors and starts hitting like their already in their prime. In fact, most of them don't which is why some patience is required from management in some situations. Especially a player that has hit the cover off the ball his entire minor league career. Your opinion on this matter is exactly the short-sighted mistake that JP is currently making. Writing off a 24 year old with only a 1/2 season of MLB at-bats under his belt. And in his place we have veterans Brad Wilkerson and Shannon Stewart, with a combined OPS under .600. Augh.

Yes. According to you, Lind is already a proven failure at age 24 but these 2 vets somehow represent success.

[Michael Bradley]

Adam Lind played 89 games last year, and batted .238

He was given a chance..

You're willing to write him off after 290 Major League at bats?

A+: .313/.375/.487, .862 OPS, 495 AB (age 21/22) - 2005
AA: .310/.357/.543, .900 OPS, 348 AB (age 22/23) - 2006
AAA: .336/.413/.519, .932 OPS, 283 AB (age 22/23) - 2006-2007

He's gotten better at every level and hasn't hit below .299 in any minor league stop. Guys like Shannon Stewart and Brad Wilkerson are past their prime and provide no tangible upgrade over Lind, on offense or defense.

If the Jays want to compete, they should be playing Lind everyday in LF. Playing Stewart and Wilkerson, with their sub-.650 OPS collectively, is destroying the offense. Even if Lind hits just as badly this season, at least he'll be able to adjust to MLB pitching and work on his flaws. What's left for him to do in AAA?

Either trade him or play him. Wasting him away accomplishes nothing.

[Geddy]

Brad Wilkerson and Shannon Stewart, with a combined OPS under .600.

Stewart's OPS is .651 which isn't good, but he's been on the rise the past few weeks. I'd rather keep him in the lineup and get Lind to replace Wilkerson.

[dennistokyo]

In 2006 Adam Lind played 18 games and hit .367 with a pair of home runs and 8 doubles. He hit 11 home runs in half a season in 2007. That's a hell of a lot more promising than the crap we have now.

[Peteros]

Yes. According to you, Lind is already a proven failure at age 24 but these 2 vets somehow represent success.

Not according to me, but according to JP and staff. I got a chance to see the Jays play and Lind bat, and he looked awful at the plate. Swinging at bad pitches. Going 0-4 with 3 SO. I'm not a fan of Lind after seeing that performance.

All your amateur GM's out there, tell me why he hasn't cracked the lineup yet??

It is clear that he has fallen off the favourite list of JP and staff. Maybe if Lind was given a chance somewhere else, he would excel.

[fliszt25]

Yes. According to you, Lind is already a proven failure at age 24 but these 2 vets somehow represent success.

Not according to me, but according to JP and staff. I got a chance to see the Jays play and Lind bat, and he looked awful at the plate. Swinging at bad pitches. Going 0-4 with 3 SO. I'm not a fan of Lind after seeing that performance.

All your amateur GM's out there, tell me why he hasn't cracked the lineup yet??

Peteros, you can't just take one bad performance as an indicator of future success. For example could you imagine if you had never heard of this A-Rod guy and you are asked to evaluate him, and on the ONE day you check him out, he has an 0-4 3 SO night and you deem that he is worthless?

And even a 1-19 stretch isn't a valid enough indicator to keep him in AAA. How many MLB players go on 1 for 19 stretches or more? How many regulars on the Blue Jays?

And of course I understand that he has to prove that he can hit at the majors and his situation is unlike regulars who have proven themselves already. However, he's proven it at AAA, what is next?

The fact is that he probably hasn't cracked the lineup yet because JP is impatient and looking for the quick fix and not the potential long term developmental solution. It's not that Lind sucks. And it isn't that Lind is on a slump either. Just as he was sent back to AAA, he continued to maintain his .325 average. I think he's the 8th best hitter in terms of average in the international league and he's proven himself there. So at the very least keeping him there is stalling his development. He's ready to suffer on the blue jays roster until he figures out how to hit major league pitching.

[Peteros]

So then we should blame JP for stalling his development. If he's such a great player/prospect. It's great to see him doing well in AAA. There have been many players who have excelled in AAA ball, and struggled in the Majors.

Don't get me wrong, I wish him the best. I hope he comes back and proves me and everyone else wrong.

[Schad]

So then we should blame JP for stalling his development. If he's such a great player/prospect. It's great to see him doing well in AAA. There have been many players who have excelled in AAA ball, and struggled in the Majors.

Don't get me wrong, I wish him the best. I hope he comes back and proves me and everyone else wrong.

Development in baseball is very much different from any other sport. Many great players are absolute garbage in their couple forays into the majors...the fact that Lind has been bad thus far in his career doesn't mean that he isn't due for another shot, nor does it mean that it was wrong to send him back to AAA if they believed his swing was out of whack (and judging by the number of pitches he was missing, that could have been the case). Mench is proving that the last two years weren't flukes, though Wilkerson (as a lefty bat off the bench, at least) is worth keeping.

I'm definitely on board with the Free Adam Lind campaign...Thigpen is another matter, though.