Ray Allen vs. Hedo Turkoglu vs. Joe Johnson vs. Vince Carter

Cammo101 · Post #21 » by **Cammo101** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:10 am

jeff1624 wrote:Apart from 3pt Shooting I really dont see the difference between the 2...

Turkoglu has become extremely overrated here in realgm

Try looking at points per shot, clutch shots, and 4th quarter scoring if you want to know why Turk is having a better year than VC.

Cammo101 · Post #22 » by **Cammo101** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:11 am

EvadedHavoc wrote:Allen
Carter
Johnson

You forgot Hedo at the top of your list. :nod:

EvadedHavoc · Post #23 » by **EvadedHavoc** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:12 am

Cammo101 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

You forgot Hedo at the top of your list.

DiplomaticMagic · Post #24 » by **DiplomaticMagic** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:18 pm

jeff1624 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Turkoglu only beat him out in 3 categories so again not much different.

And VC only beat him out in 2 well 3 if you count minutes played :dontknow:

T-Spot · Post #25 » by **T-Spot** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:39 pm

etopn23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Hedo's a third option* who rarely sees a double team.

Carter is a first option who faces nightly double teams, the best defender on the other team, and has to break down defenses single handedly for the most part.

All of that while being on one leg. You can't just point at stats and say OH LOOK Hedo's as good as Carter. You're just deluding yourself. Carter has much more of an impact on a game.

*2nd or 3rd. Varies night to night.

Carter is a first option who faces nightly double teams? :rofl:

Carter and RJ switch between one and two depending on who has the hotter hand and who is more focused to get the the basket (usually RJ). Carter has just renewed his vows with Ms. Jumpshot and teams would just love for him to keep chucking. Its a blue moon whenever he even bothers to break down defenses.

This is 2008 buddy. Carter could not even (or does not want to) break down an aging 33 year old who is a slightly above average defender with little lateral quickness.

Hedo is Mr. Clutch and is the man in the fourth quarter. How is Howard going to impact the game late when everyone is just going to hack him to send him to the line? That's when Turko earns his pay check (which is probably substantially less than what Carter gets). Hedo also probably takes less shots than Carter. Lets not mention that Hedo does not even have a competent point guard running the offense and often creates for himself. He is also a competent defender from what I have seen. Absolute break out season.

Ray Allen has a slight edge over JJ and VC because, he is MR. Clutch version 2.0 but its a slim lead.

etopn23 · Post #26 » by **etopn23** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:03 pm

T-Spot wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Carter is a first option who faces nightly double teams?

Carter and RJ switch between one and two depending on who has the hotter hand and who is more focused to get the the basket (usually RJ). Carter has just renewed his vows with Ms. Jumpshot and teams would just love for him to keep chucking. Its a blue moon whenever he even bothers to break down defenses.

This is 2008 buddy. Carter could not even (or does not want to) break down an aging 33 year old who is a slightly above average defender with little lateral quickness.

Hedo is Mr. Clutch and is the man in the fourth quarter. How is Howard going to impact the game late when everyone is just going to hack him to send him to the line? That's when Turko earns his pay check (which is probably substantially less than what Carter gets). Hedo also probably takes less shots than Carter. .

As someone who has watched every Nets game (go look at the game threads on the NJ Net forum for the past 2 years) I can say this is utter bull.

It's haters like you that make it blatantly obvious that people still tend to give Carter unwarranted criticisms. Carter can't drive or finish anymore? Are you insane? It just makes it all the more obvious you haven't watched him play ball this year.

Carter creates virtually every shot he takes off of Isos - RJ is the one getting the majority of the assisted baskets. Part of the reason why he is shooting so many FT's is because he gets fouled cutting to the basket often. I'll say it again - VC is still the primary cog in that offense - he has been passing more than he has been shooting this season - and as a result other players (Boone/Williams/RJ) have been benefiting. Despite the fact that he's been taking less shots teams still double HIM primarily. It isn't even disputable if you've been watching the games.

Carter has had his share of fourth quarter performances this season - the Nets have just sucked, and as a result he doesn't get any props for them.

If you think i'm a VC homer making this up, why not go to the Net forum and ask them? It's ridiculous that Carter is becoming the scapegoat for virtually everything wrong with that team.

T-Spot · Post #27 » by **T-Spot** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:42 pm

etopn23 wrote:It's haters like you that make it blatantly obvious that people still tend to give Carter unwarranted criticisms. Carter can't drive or finish anymore? Are you insane? It just makes it all the more obvious you haven't watched him play ball this year.

I'm an old hand at watching Carter. As a Toronto fan my criticisms may be a harsh and unwarranted sometimes, but its form what I have seen in Carter's last years in Toronto (he's even admitted that he did not try) and when he visited in Toronto, especially since last season.

I don't know if he just does not play well in Toronto or against Toronto but the two games this year and all the games at the ACC last year, he look very disinterested in driving. He settles for jumpers too much and while he can abuse defenses and drive and finish, he often looks like he does not want to (thus the nick name Wince). His assists per game are a career high, (5.1) but its not far off his assist average since he was traded to NJ, (something like 4.7), but I have seen the increase of passing in the last 2-3 Net games. His scoring and shooting percentages are down, more than the increase in assists.

And in the last game against Toronto, Carter literally, could not even (or does not want to) break down an aging 33 year old who is a slightly above average defender with little lateral quickness to get to the rim.

I'm too lazy to check his hotspots (where he shoots most). Can someone get that number?

Despite not seeing too many Nets games, using what I have seen from his last days in Toronto and his visits over the last two years I'm going to stick to what I have seen (and the Cleavland series). Often disinterested in getting to the rim, loves the jumper too much, and is afraid of physical contact and will avoid it if he can.

Cammo101 · Post #28 » by **Cammo101** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:59 pm

Hedo has more shots this season than any player on the Magic. Ergo, he is the 1st option. Try again Carter lovers.

Mad Balla 15 · Post #29 » by **Mad Balla 15** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:26 am

Cammo101 wrote:Hedo has more shots this season than any player on the Magic. Ergo, he is the 1st option. Try again Carter lovers.

That's terrible logic considering that Dwight obviously takes less shots because he goes to the FT line 12 times a game. Also anybody with a brain knows Dwight is the 1st option on Orlando while Hedo/Lewis are the 2nd and 3rd options and alternate each night.

raleigh · Post #30 » by **raleigh** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:31 am

Hendrix wrote:I can't beleive Johnson's making the ASG this year.

Most Hawks' fans agree, but I will say this in his defense - he gets doubled more than any other 2nd tier star in the NBA.

MagicFan3 · Post #31 » by **MagicFan3** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:26 am

Mad Balla 15 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

That's terrible logic considering that Dwight obviously takes less shots because he goes to the FT line 12 times a game. Also anybody with a brain knows Dwight is the 1st option on Orlando while Hedo/Lewis are the 2nd and 3rd options and alternate each night.

Anyone who has watched even one Magic game this year would know that, for better or worse, Dwight is never our first option offensively.

Mad Balla 15 · Post #32 » by **Mad Balla 15** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:00 am

MagicFan3 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Anyone who has watched even one Magic game this year would know that, for better or worse, Dwight is never our first option offensively.

Damn man, I must've been watching the wrong Orlando games then. Usually when I watch the games the ball goes inside to Dwight first. Nevertheless that doesn't take away from the fact that technically Hedo is a 2nd or 3rd option player on that team. Let's be honest, take Dwight away and they'll be much more attention payed to Hedo regardless of whether Dwight is 1st option on offense or not. His presence on the court is like Duncan's presence; he has an impact as long as he's on the court.

Whereas Carter for the Nets is their best offensive player (regardless of what people say about Jefferson scoring more this year). Vince is like Dwight in that sense; his presence on the court makes a big difference. Go check 82games.com and Vince has the highest +/- Roland rating for the Nets. Also, when Vince went out for 5 games with his ankle injury, Jefferson's numbers dropped big time for those 5 games as well as his fg% because then he became the main attention without Vince there.

Cigamodnalro · Post #33 » by **Cigamodnalro** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:02 am

Mad Balla 15 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Damn man, I must've been watching the wrong Orlando games then. Usually when I watch the games the ball goes inside to Dwight first. Nevertheless that doesn't take away from the fact that technically Hedo is a 2nd or 3rd option player on that team. Let's be honest, take Dwight away and they'll be much more attention payed to Hedo regardless of whether Dwight is 1st option on offense or not. His presence on the court is like Duncan's presence; he has an impact as long as he's on the court.

We'd be a far better team if that were the case. Usually we go to Dwight early, and then he is more or less ignored the rest of the game. He gets a ton of his points on putbacks and free throws, as well as when his man leaves him for the slasher.

Birth of the Cool · Post #34 » by **Birth of the Cool** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:55 pm

According to Roland Ratings VC has the most positive impact on his team (including Kidd who I guess is still a Net for now) from these four players (yeah I know media would tell you otherwise).

For his team Hedo has the 2nd most positive impact (obviously Dwight being the first by quite a margin).

Joe Johnson also has the 2nd most positive impact on his team (clearly behind Josh Smith).

and finally Ray Allen has the 3rd most positive impact on his team (way behind Garnett & Pierce and actually Rondo positive impact on the Celtics is almost on par with Ray's).

so based on pure positive impact on their individual teams it would be ranked VC / Hedo / JJ / Jebus

but the Nets & Hawks are horrible (yet still in the playoffs lol) while Orlando & Boston are one of the few good teams in the East.

So my ranking for this season considering all that is Hedo / VC / JJ / Jebus with Hedo & VC on one tier while JJ & Jebus below that level.

HarlemHeat37 · Post #35 » by **HarlemHeat37** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:02 pm

obviously if we're talking about THIS season, and this season only, then Carter is lower..but in general, he's EASILY better than all of these players..everybody knows Carter's history of "leadership" and unwillingness to dominate..when he wants to, he's easily better than all of them though..great playmaker, good shooter..his D is as good as the rest of those dudes..

just THIS season doesn't mean much..all these guys have had better seasons than Arenas(obviously, since he isn't playing) but he's still better than all of them..