The McInnis Effect 2.0

[Bowens]

They weren't having doubts, they were giving him the reigns just like everyone wanted....

....and look where that got us.

They did have doubts. I'm sure MJ and Bernie had a conversation or 2 last season regarding Ray and yet Ray continued to play the 2. So of course there was some doubt heading into the season, or they would have just made Ray the full time PG last year. Not like the team was going anywhere.

Then this year it was clear Ray was on a short leash at the beginning of the year. If Shiny Head sees that Ray isn't a PG, then surely there must have been discussion during the summer between MJ and Shiny because Shiny wouldn't have yanked Ray so soon. And yet the front office chose to not bring in a capable backup or someone who could compete with Ray for the starting job.

[W_HAMILTON]

If they had doubts, they shouldn't have gotten rid of the our starting PG for the greater part of two seasons.

It wasn't a money-saving deal, considering we've spent plenty of money since then to try and remedy the problems with this team.

I have no doubt it was done as a "it's time for Felton to take over, and McInnis should be ok as a backup."

Problem is, McInnis was not an ok backup, Felton was not ready to take over, and Vincent ended up playing McInnis more than he should, which means our PG position has just about been a disaster all around this season.

At best, they thought Felton was capable of taking over. At worst, they figured he was good enough to let "sink or swim." Needless to say, from the moves they made (or the moves they didn't make, until they finally brought in Boykins), they were satisfied going into the season with Felton and McInnis as our PGs.

[Bowens]

If they had doubts, they shouldn't have gotten rid of the our starting PG for the greater part of two seasons.

It wasn't a money-saving deal, considering we've spent plenty of money since then to try and remedy the problems with this team.

I have no doubt it was done as a "it's time for Felton to take over, and McInnis should be ok as a backup."

Problem is, McInnis was not an ok backup, Felton was not ready to take over, and Vincent ended up playing McInnis more than he should, which means our PG position has just about been a disaster all around this season.

At best, they thought Felton was capable of taking over. At worst, they figured he was good enough to let "sink or swim." Needless to say, from the moves they made (or the moves they didn't make, until they finally brought in Boykins), they were satisfied going into the season with Felton and McInnis as our PGs.

The bottom line is the front office made a mistake and should have gone out and got someone better to either backup Ray, or someone good enough to compete for the starting job. McMinus wasn't quality either way you slice it. He should have been 3rd string heading into the season. But that we agree on. The problem is with Ray and it's obvious the organization was not completely sold on this guy. It's ok that they weren't completely sold on him, but they should have had a plan B right from the start.

Hopefully the front office learned a lot from this season, that not only do you have to have quality starters, but you need a capable bench too. Things wouldn't have been so bad if Carroll and McMinus were better, but they aren't and it's a big reason why we suck.

[Paydro70]

Lets see here. Since stats are all there is let me put my math degree to work.

3.03 Assist to turnover ratio for Jeff ahead of:

Steve Nash
Derron Williams
Jason Kidd
Baron Davis

So for someone who just turns the ball over he does that alot less than these other guys compared to the amount of good passes he throws. Am I saying he is better than them, no. He should not even be mentioned with them, but this is to prove a point. His defense is not great but no where near what Carroll attempts to call defense. Jeff plays a decent game and does not try to do things he is unable to do. He is not a bad shooter he just does not shoot much. He is shooting better than Carroll, from the feild, a guy who can only shoot. Jeff has no range but he doesn't force alot of shots up either. I know there are better options out there but he is what we have now and it works. I just don't see how he is horrible other than people are just pissed that he is playing with Felts at the same time.

Simplistic to say the least. Jeff McInnis currently ranks 58th of 63 point guards in turnover rate. He is a turnover machine. His assist rate is also high, 3rd in the league, behind Brevin Knight and Jose Calderon. This is not because he is an excellent passer, but because he does nothing but pass because he is so completely worthless on the offensive end.

Here's the real problem... Nash and McInnis turn the ball over at a similar rate, and get assists at a similar rate. Besides the obvious reasons that Nash is better than McInnis (mostly in Nash's ability to score on the relatively few shots he takes), the turnovers themselves tell the story. 75% of Nash's turnovers are on "bad passes" meaning Nash trying to make things happen, trying to get the ball into tight spaces for easy baskets. McInnis is at 59%. Offensive fouls make up almost FIVE TIMES as much of his turnovers as Nash, and ballhandling fouls about a quarter more. In other words, his turnovers are much dumber and less likely to be the unfortunate result of aggressive point guard play, like Nash's are.

In a way Hamilton is right, McInnis doesn't really "hurt" us too much, because he has an amazingly low usage rate for a PG (dead last in the league, by far). Instead we are very literally playing 4 on 5 on offense, which is almost as bad as you can get. The only thing that would be worse is a player who more frequently misses shots and turns the ball over than contributes something positive, which is more rare than you'd think.

A replacement-level player (meaning any guy off the metaphorical "street," really the D-League or free agency) would at least contribute SOMETHING to the team, which McInnis does not. Also considering the fact that McInnis is a horrible defender who hurts the team constantly on that end, and you have a pretty good picture of what he is as a player.

If McInnis causes us to win, it is most certainly not of his own doing.

[Bowens]

Simplistic to say the least. Jeff McInnis currently ranks 58th of 63 point guards in turnover rate. He is a turnover machine. His assist rate is also high, 3rd in the league, behind Brevin Knight and Jose Calderon. This is not because he is an excellent passer, but because he does nothing but pass because he is so completely worthless on the offensive end.

Here's the real problem... Nash and McInnis turn the ball over at a similar rate, and get assists at a similar rate. Besides the obvious reasons that Nash is better than McInnis (mostly in Nash's ability to score on the relatively few shots he takes), the turnovers themselves tell the story. 75% of Nash's turnovers are on "bad passes" meaning Nash trying to make things happen, trying to get the ball into tight spaces for easy baskets. McInnis is at 59%. Offensive fouls make up almost FIVE TIMES as much of his turnovers as Nash, and ballhandling fouls about a quarter more. In other words, his turnovers are much dumber and less likely to be the unfortunate result of aggressive point guard play, like Nash's are.

In a way Hamilton is right, McInnis doesn't really "hurt" us too much, because he has an amazingly low usage rate for a PG (dead last in the league, by far). Instead we are very literally playing 4 on 5 on offense, which is almost as bad as you can get. The only thing that would be worse is a player who more frequently misses shots and turns the ball over than contributes something positive, which is more rare than you'd think.

A replacement-level player (meaning any guy off the metaphorical "street," really the D-League or free agency) would at least contribute SOMETHING to the team, which McInnis does not. Also considering the fact that McInnis is a horrible defender who hurts the team constantly on that end, and you have a pretty good picture of what he is as a player.

If McInnis causes us to win, it is most certainly not of his own doing.

Not a good comparison between Nash and McMinus because of the teams they play on. I don't know what the exact numbers are, but I am almost 100% sure Phoenix has a lot more possessions on offense than we do because of their up tempo style. That needs to be taken into account.

So your 48 MPG comparison between Nash and McMinus is not accurate. Nash turning the ball over 3 times every 50 possessions is not the same as McMinus turning it over 3 times every 40. Obviously.

That leads to 1 McMinus turnover costing us a lot more than 1 Nash turnover would cost the Suns.

[spectre_]

Touche' is great...he won us the Atlanta game. You guys should stop picking on him so much.

McInnis leads Bobcats past Hawks in OT

The Associated Press

CHARLOTTE, N.C. --Jeff McInnis' hook shot with 51.4 seconds left in overtime gave the Charlotte Bobcats a 100-98 victory over the Atlanta Hawks on Wednesday night.



AP Photo
Charlotte Bobcats guard Jeff McInnis (0) drives past Atlanta Hawks guard Joe Johnson (2) in an NBA basketball game at the Charlotte Bobcats Arena in Charlotte, N.C. on Wednesday, Feb. 13, 2008. The Bobcats won in overtime 100-98.

[e4Nf6]

I'm dumbfounded that people are defending Jeff here....

Very true what was said about Nash's turnover's being better turnovers....

As far as Mccinnis knowing he's not a shooter and that somehow being an asset:

This is not 1934, there is a shot-clock and we have to get a shot of some kind within 24 seconds....

And when someone doubles Mek or helps on Crash the other team always has no problem rotating because Mccinnis is no threat from behind the arc.

Now you may see that happen and you think "nothing lost" because Jeff didn't shoot, but you lost the opportunity and you lost the time on the shot clock you used to get it. If that is Carrol or Derek Anderson on the court it would have been an open three-pointer. Or, just as likely, they don't double at all.

Oh, and it's easy to not turn the ball over when you are doing nothing, dribbling around the perimiter and making easy passes along the outside. Try driving to the basket as much as Nash or Baron Davis and see what happens....

I used to laugh at Hams conspiracy theories about UNC grads getting more chances here, but maybe he's right. I didn't see any similar threads about Othella Harrington or Primoz Brezec...

[BigSlam]

No, I don't think Jeff McInnis is exactly a good player.

At the same time, he gets more criticism around here than he deserves. Most of the time, he's just providing nothing. Not good, not bad, just nothing really.

You'd think he's some vital part of our team the way people blame him for everything..

I consider him, going into our season as our back up pg, as a vital part. It's not like he's the 15th man on the roster. I mean heck, he's averaging 26mpg. It's not like he's sitting around watching.

At the very least McMinus is taking up a roster spot of someone else who might be younger with more potential and abilty.

He has a negative impact on the team.

If you want to fill the team with guys who are "not good, not bad, just nothing really" then we'll end up with a team full of Pigboy Harrington's, Lonny Baxters and Lonny Baxters.

[Rich4114]

-= original quote snipped =-



I consider him, going into our season as our back up pg, as a vital part. It's not like he's the 15th man on the roster. I mean heck, he's averaging 26mpg. It's not like he's sitting around watching.

At the very least McMinus is taking up a roster spot of someone else who might be younger with more potential and abilty.

He has a negative impact on the team.

If you want to fill the team with guys who are "not good, not bad, just nothing really" then we'll end up with a team full of Pigboy Harrington's, Lonny Baxters and Lonny Baxters.

LOL, this is the best thing you've ever said, I couldn't agree more.

It's not that I have anything against Jeff or think he's the worst player on our roster, but like BK I think he's used poorly.

If it were up to me, I would've kept BK and used him as a backup PG for 10mpg. Since we now have Mcinnis, I would use him as a backup PG for 10mpg. But we don't, we choose to create mis-matches for almost all of our players across the board. The Hawks announcers were laughing about the mis-matches in the beggining of the game. We didn't make a run till we went with a more conventional lineup with the penetration to the hoop plays.

We as fans don't expect mediocrity or poorness, we expect to win... eventually. I think we've all been patient but we're at a cross-roads where we can be the Atlanta Hawks or we can be the Detroit Pistons. Right now the more likely scenario is the Hawks. No offense to the Hawks, but when was the last time they made the playoffs or two consecutive good personnel decisions?

[W_HAMILTON]

-= original quote snipped =-
The problem is with Ray and it's obvious the organization was not completely sold on this guy.

If you're "completely not sold" on someone, you don't get rid of their competition at the position, and you don't opt to go with only one inferior backup for most of the season. Again, they either did this because (1) they believed in him or (2) they believed it was time for him to sink or swim.

It's ok that they weren't completely sold on him, but they should have had a plan B right from the start.

We had a plan B for most of his career, and that plan B ended up beating him out for the starting job, and was one of the many reasons listed why Felton always disappointed to begin with.

[W_HAMILTON]

-= original quote snipped =-
If you want to fill the team with guys who are "not good, not bad, just nothing really"

I didn't say I approve of that. At the same time, that's apparently what we needed at backup to let Felton "shine." When we had someone good that was just what we needed, everyone wanted to run him off because he "stunted" Felton's growth at PG. So, what's the only other option? Settle for trash, and let Felton prove himself.

Halfway through the season, starting in Felton's place at PG, is the "trash."

[Paydro70]

Bowens, the "assist rate" and "turnover rate" I'm referring to is based on the percentage of possessions the player uses. So no, Nash does turn the ball over just as frequently as Jeff, it's just that he's doing it because he's aggressive and trying to set up teammates, Jeff is doing it because he's incompetent.

To finish out the other half of that equation, Jeff's really high assist rate, you can note that Jeff gets over a quarter of his assists on 3pters, and another third on jump shots. Nash by comparison gets only 19% and 27% respectively. Nash gets almost double as many dunk assists, and many more "close" assists as well. In short, McInnis is passing it around to guys to take jump shots instead of actually setting up his teammates.

[Rich4114]

-= original quote snipped =-



We had a plan B for most of his career, and that plan B ended up beating him out for the starting job, and was one of the many reasons listed why Felton always disappointed to begin with.

So by this thinking, I guess the organization must feel Felton is a better shooting guard than J-Rich since he "took his starting job".

The problem is that Vincent is a moron and thinks we need Felton in as a jump shooter so he can score instead of using him at PG. And the only other option has been Mcinnis. Can you please tell me when we've played Felton a full game at PG this season? We haven't from start to finish. Opening night they had Mcinnis in there at PG with Ray at SG.

The organization (and I think this was Jordan's doing mainly) wanted to get rid of Knight because of his attitude and the fact that it was time to hand the keys over to Felton. Felton was talking about being the leader of this team, etc. etc. BK was a decent PG, perfect as a backup PG, but Bernie refused to use him that way. So we go cheap with Mcinnis and everyone expects him to be used seldomly to backup Felton at PG. I mean this would be natural after aquiring J-Rich who is a border-line all-star SG and having Wallace locked up at SF with Okafor and Nazr at PF/C... but noooooo.

I really don't get why you go out of your way to say Felton sucks as our starting PG, especially compared to freaking Jeff Mcinnis. I mean do you truly believe that or do you just say it to make some sort of point?

[W_HAMILTON]

So by this thinking, I guess the organization must feel Felton is a better shooting guard than J-Rich since he "took his starting job".

Richardson slid over to SF to accomodate Felton at SG, much the same way Felton slid over to SG to accomodate McWinnis.

The problem is that Vincent is a moron and thinks we need Felton in as a jump shooter so he can score instead of using him at PG.

No, the problem is that Felton thinks that.

The reason why all these coaches "refuse" to use their supposed backup PGs as backup PGs is because Felton has been so disappointing as a starting PG. You realize that Vincent completely banished McInnis to the bench, thinking he was the cause for all our sucking, back during the road trip, right? And that lasted about two games, because the games where McInnis didn't play looked even worse than the games where he did play. You could see the progression. Again, it's pretty simple.

All Felton had to do was win as our starting PG. And he didn't.

All he had to do was win, either earlier in the year when we got off to our disappointing start, or the second go around when he was given the starting PG spot, which he got basically by default yet again (which has pretty much always been the case with him).

Jeff McWinnis sucks, yet we win more with him in the starting lineup, as our starting PG, than we do with anyone else on the team. For a coach who's line is probably on the job, you want wins, and like it or not, McWinnis has been the one winning.

[Bowens]

Bowens, the "assist rate" and "turnover rate" I'm referring to is based on the percentage of possessions the player uses. So no, Nash does turn the ball over just as frequently as Jeff, it's just that he's doing it because he's aggressive and trying to set up teammates, Jeff is doing it because he's incompetent.

To finish out the other half of that equation, Jeff's really high assist rate, you can note that Jeff gets over a quarter of his assists on 3pters, and another third on jump shots. Nash by comparison gets only 19% and 27% respectively. Nash gets almost double as many dunk assists, and many more "close" assists as well. In short, McInnis is passing it around to guys to take jump shots instead of actually setting up his teammates.

I didn't even know they kept "possession" stats until I checked out 82games.com last night. I'm not a stats person. But I do know all about the quality of assists Nash gets as opposed to McMinus. That I am very familiar with. Bottom line is that McMinus sucks which we both realize.

[Walt Cronkite]

Maybe Felton at the 2 allows Wallace to play/guard PFs and it's the only legit solution to the problem for this season?

[fluffernutter]

I'm dumbfounded that people are defending Jeff here....

Very true what was said about Nash's turnover's being better turnovers....

As far as Mccinnis knowing he's not a shooter and that somehow being an asset:

This is not 1934, there is a shot-clock and we have to get a shot of some kind within 24 seconds....

And when someone doubles Mek or helps on Crash the other team always has no problem rotating because Mccinnis is no threat from behind the arc.

Now you may see that happen and you think "nothing lost" because Jeff didn't shoot, but you lost the opportunity and you lost the time on the shot clock you used to get it. If that is Carrol or Derek Anderson on the court it would have been an open three-pointer. Or, just as likely, they don't double at all.

Oh, and it's easy to not turn the ball over when you are doing nothing, dribbling around the perimiter and making easy passes along the outside. Try driving to the basket as much as Nash or Baron Davis and see what happens....

I used to laugh at Hams conspiracy theories about UNC grads getting more chances here, but maybe he's right. I didn't see any similar threads about Othella Harrington or Primoz Brezec...

Nice zwischenzug.

[BigSlam]

Jeff McWinnis.

That's freaking awesome and officially becomes the best nickname given on this board since "J-Brick"!!