Walton vs shaq R1

[kingmalaki]

Hmm, Shaq mentioned Russell, Wilt (RIP) and Kareem in his pecking order....but no Hakeem?

Big Man Rule #25599 - Don't forget to mention the center who swept you for the ring

[jaypo]

Hmm, Shaq mentioned Russell, Wilt (RIP) and Kareem in his pecking order....but no Hakeem?

Big Man Rule #25599 - Don't forget to mention the center who swept you for the ring

I watched the game 4 of those finals yesterday, and the Rockets swept the MAGIC, not SHAQ! Shaq played as well as Akeem did it that series. Horry, Smith, Drexler, and Mario Elie's defense won that series.

BTW, 4 rings to 2. 6 finals appearances to 2. That's what puts Shaq above Akeem in the pecking order. If we use the othe logic, then Shaq should be above Jordan in the GOAT discussion, because the Magic put the Bulls out of the playoffs while Jordan was there!

[kingmalaki]

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I watched the game 4 of those finals yesterday, and the Rockets swept the MAGIC, not SHAQ! Shaq played as well as Akeem did it that series. Horry, Smith, Drexler, and Mario Elie's defense won that series.

BTW, 4 rings to 2. 6 finals appearances to 2. That's what puts Shaq above Akeem in the pecking order. If we use the othe logic, then Shaq should be above Jordan in the GOAT discussion, because the Magic put the Bulls out of the playoffs while Jordan was there!

I have the games on tape and Hakeem got the best of Shaq. Even Shaq is on record as saying "Hakeem kicked my butt". He makes no excuses so neither should you.

Shaq has great accomplishments. He has been fortunate to always have a great guard on his team (Penny, Kobe, Wade, now Nash)...which is crucial since he can't close games (i.e. Hakeem can). If you don't think Hakeem has the same success on any of those teams then you are off. This man carried players like Kenny Smith, Maxwell and Otis Thorpe to a title.

My logic is that Hakeem's numbers are right with Shaq's, he was a dominant defender and he kiccked his butt in the Finals. It is debatable who is #4 or #5 and Shaq has his points but to simply forget Hakeem when he drilled you for a title...unacceptable...

[basketball royalty]

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I have the games on tape and Hakeem got the best of Shaq. Even Shaq is on record as saying "Hakeem kicked my butt". He makes no excuses so neither should you.

Shaq has great accomplishments. He has been fortunate to always have a great guard on his team (Penny, Kobe, Wade, now Nash)...which is crucial since he can't close games (i.e. Hakeem can). If you don't think Hakeem has the same success on any of those teams then you are off. This man carried players like Kenny Smith, Maxwell and Otis Thorpe to a title.

My logic is that Hakeem's numbers are right with Shaq's, he was a dominant defender and he kiccked his butt in the Finals. It is debatable who is #4 or #5 and Shaq has his points but to simply forget Hakeem when he drilled you for a title...unacceptable...

I wonder what would have happened if Hakeem had played Shaq in the Finals when he was in his prime on the Lakers and not a 3rd year player.
Both are great centers, but I would have to give the nod to Shaq.

[kingmalaki]

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I wonder what would have happened if Hakeem had played Shaq in the Finals when he was in his prime on the Lakers and not a 3rd year player.
Both are great centers, but I would have to give the nod to Shaq.

The same thing IMO. Shaq isn't a solid defender at all. He can't stop our current center (Yao) from getting points on him. In his prime he got bigger but also slower. I'm not seeing how that would help him in stopping Hakeem.

I have seen Hakeem go toe-to-toe against great centers and come out successful when it mattered, even when he was young (i.e. against Kareem and LA in 86...but Kareem was older). I have never seen Shaq do this so I am putting my money on Dream.

Edit: And my point wasn't to say Hakeem is definately better. Shaq has very solid arguments for being ranked ahead. I think Hakeem also has very solid arguments. My point was how do you forget that guy that you aren't clearly better than, especially when he swept you for a championship.

[basketball royalty]

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The same thing IMO. Shaq isn't a solid defender at all. He can't stop our current center (Yao) from getting points on him. In his prime he got bigger but also slower. I'm not seeing how that would help him in stopping Hakeem.

I have seen Hakeem go toe-to-toe against great centers and come out successful when it mattered, even when he was young (i.e. against Kareem and LA in 86...but Kareem was older). I have never seen Shaq do this so I am putting my money on Dream.

Edit: And my point wasn't to say Hakeem is definately better. Shaq has very solid arguments for being ranked ahead. I think Hakeem also has very solid arguments. My point was how do you forget that guy that you aren't clearly better than, especially when he swept you for a championship.

I think it is simple. Maybe he looked up to being a guy like Wilt or Russel or Kareem, maybe, because he played at the same time as Hakeem he wasn't as impressed. The legend of those guys is a lot greater than the legend of Hakeem. Maybe you just need to give it a few years for Hakeems legend to grow and young players would mention his name... right after Shaqs...

[nolunch]

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I have the games on tape and Hakeem got the best of Shaq. Even Shaq is on record as saying "Hakeem kicked my butt". He makes no excuses so neither should you.

Shaq has great accomplishments. He has been fortunate to always have a great guard on his team (Penny, Kobe, Wade, now Nash)...which is crucial since he can't close games (i.e. Hakeem can). If you don't think Hakeem has the same success on any of those teams then you are off. This man carried players like Kenny Smith, Maxwell and Otis Thorpe to a title.

My logic is that Hakeem's numbers are right with Shaq's, he was a dominant defender and he kiccked his butt in the Finals. It is debatable who is #4 or #5 and Shaq has his points but to simply forget Hakeem when he drilled you for a title...unacceptable...

Shaq was too young at that time. Hakeem attempted 29 shots PER GAME.

[Myth_Breaker]

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Naive. Okay. My theory comes from many articles and reports that I've read from Miami and from Phoenix. Where is your proof that he is "out of shape?"

Umm... from watching his games and behavior for years?

And yes, you should miss games if you're injured. At his age, the body doesn't heal as fast as when you're young. You still haven't managed to prove me wrong about the injuries he sustained. I never blamed his opponents. I am simply stating that he misses games because of injuries. The injuries there have nothing to do with what kind of shape he was in.

Of course, it's complete coincidence that Diesel is the most injury prone out of all the greatest players in history, while staying in shape has nothing in common with avoiding injuries. I don't know if you're only playing a fool to protect your favorite player or you really are so... naive nad ignorant about basic basketball truths. But whatever: Kareem when 40 yrs old was in better shape and less-injury prone than O'Neal at 36; Wilt as 36 bested 30-years old Diesel as to these traits; and so on, but I'm sure these are all coincidences...

If I use your "naive" logic, then Dwade must have been out of shape because he missed time for his shoulder and knee surgeries.

No, it would be your naive logic, not based on watching the games or on the knowledge that we have on practice habits of these respective players.

And now I see the deal- you're a Jordan fan boy. One of my good friends was the same way, and he hated Shaq for no reason other than Shaq came into the league and started getting some of Jordan's press. Jordan is my 2nd fav. player of all time. He was never accused of being lazy. But he was accused of gambling, cheating on his wife, and degrading team mates that didn't play up to his standards.

Really, Sherlock? Priceless! I'm a Jordan fan - NOW I've heard everything on these boards. Tell J23F or Jordans_Bulls about this discovery: they're gonna laugh really long and hard. But seriously: of course I do not require knowledge of my post history from anyone, yet your hypothesis is still (Please Use More Appropriate Word) since even in this thread I didn't show anything suggesting I'm a Jordan fan: just used his name as a player with better work ethic than Shaquille. It could be any other great, from Russell to Kobe since, frankly speaking, every single one of them bested O'Neal as to staying in shape and practice habits. But it also reveals much about yourself and your objectivity: apparently you can't imagine someone who - unlike you - judges players not according to whether likes them or not...
Not to mention that if I were you, I'd be careful with calling others players' fanboys. I mean: do you have any other goal of posting on RealGM than defending Shaquille? Until now I've seen such behavior mainly among Jordan fans: but apparently Diesel attracts groupies as well.


I don't need stats of smoking gun proof for any points. I've watched Shaq and MJ's careers from the beginning. I didn't address your statements about his rudeness or arrogance because I think they're ignorant. I'm sure someone who has accomplished as much as he has can display arrogance. Have you ever seen MJ? Shaq is no different. Rudeness- well, ask 99% of people that know what they're talking about (except Kobe fans), and they say that Shaq is one of the friendliest people in the NBA.

Friendly? Yes - as long as everyone around tries to please him and his juvenile personality. And how exactly Jordan's arrogance justifies Shaq's arrogance? Just like with this excusing him in this thread "because Walton started it". Even if we agreed with this, it doesn't change the simple fact that Diesel behaved unacceptably towards much older and quite accomplished player. And not for the first time (see Barry case - while certainly you can't accuse Barry for saying anything offensive: he was just advising Shaq on free throws) - just like not for the first time O'Neal showed his ignorance on accomplishments from the past. But of course, for you this all is perfectly acceptable, perhaps even worthy a praise...

[Number34]

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Friendly? Yes - as long as everyone around tries to please him and his juvenile personality. And how exactly Jordan's arrogance justifies Shaq's arrogance? Just like with this excusing him in this thread "because Walton started it". Even if we agreed with this, it doesn't change the simple fact that Diesel behaved unacceptably towards much older and quite accomplished player. And not for the first time (see Barry case - while certainly you can't accuse Barry for saying anything offensive: he was just advising Shaq on free throws) - just like not for the first time O'Neal showed his ignorance on accomplishments from the past. But of course, for you this all is perfectly acceptable, perhaps even worthy a praise...

Why the hell do you have a problem with shaq standing up for himself? Most people would have done the same for themselves.

[Myth_Breaker]

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Why the hell do you have a problem with shaq standing up for himself? Most people would have done the same for themselves.

Read the thread.

[Number34]

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Read the thread.

i've read the thread cock face, but that still doesn't explain your personal vendetta against shaq. The guy says stupid things but this time he was just standing up for himself. Whats the problem?

[Myth_Breaker]

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i've read the thread cock face, but that still doesn't explain your personal vendetta against shaq. The guy says stupid things but this time he was just standing up for himself. Whats the problem?

Sorry, but I'm not a special school teacher to explain simple English to you. Nevertheless, congrats for your blanket statement on my "vendetta" against Shaq. I'm sure you analyzed my post history and have some serious basis for these claims.

[Number34]

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Sorry, but I'm not a special school teacher to explain simple English to you. Nevertheless, congrats for your blanket statement on my "vendetta" against Shaq. I'm sure you analyzed my post history and have some serious basis for these claims.

Hey buddy, I couldn't be **** to go though your post history but its pretty clear that haven't you said anything even remotely positive about shaq in this thread.

If you want to continue bringing up every negative trait about the bloke, even from his days as a player for the magic, go ahead and find that special ed teacher to explain it to me because like hell I'm sifting though more your hater bull about one of the best players that has ever graced (pun there) hard wood. Just look at it simply ok mate, what is wrong with him standing up for himself? He was attacked publicly on TV by a person that has no right to criticize him.

Stop picking about every word he says, and creating some **** tangent. Look at it as a whole.

[Myth_Breaker]

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Hey buddy, I couldn't be **** to go though your post history but its pretty clear that haven't you said anything even remotely positive about shaq in this thread.

If you want to continue bringing up every negative trait about the bloke, even from his days as a player for the magic, go ahead and find that special ed teacher to explain it to me because like hell I'm sifting though more your hater bull about one of the best players that has ever graced (pun there) hard wood. Just look at it simply ok mate, what is wrong with him standing up for himself? He was attacked publicly on TV by a person that has no right to criticize him.

Stop picking about every word he says, and creating some **** tangent. Look at it as a whole.

As a whole: Shaq has been behaving like a moron for his whole life. Simple enough? I'm not so surprised you're defending him as a Heat fan - after all, he gave you your only championship - yet you're confusing Shaq's on-court achievements with his off-court behavior. Him being all-time great doesn't justify being also lazy, ignorant and juvenile jerk. Not to mention that if he had better mentality, he'd also had more success and be higher on the list of all-time greatest players...
And to make it clear: I do separate off-court and on-court issues. I've started to dislike O'Neal as a person already in his late Lakers' days and of course this dislike only grown as he forced bad trade on us and repeatedly insulted our franchise. Yet from purely basketball standpoint IMHO his legacy only grew after co-leading Heat to the championship.
But may I ask you what it all has in common with Shaq being generally rude and ignorant towards greats from the past?

[magicfan4life05]

walton was giving shaq major props last night after phoenix beat the celtics

[jaypo]

Wow. Now we're having someone base his credibility on his "wonderful POST HISTORY" on an NBA forum. I didn't take you seriously before, but now, I'm gonna forget about the last 19yrs of my life and start hating Shaq because someone with a POST HISTORY as extraordinary as yours must know what they're talking about!!!

I don't care if you have Jesus come to tell me that your POST HISTORY (and I can't help but laugh every time I type that) qualifies you to make statements trying to degrade others on this board. You won't change my mind, nor anyone else's on this board. I had this problem with some other guy here. As a general rule, I've noticed in the last couple of years that this site is full of Akeem fans, Kobe Fans, and Shaq haters. And most of them love to attack people that are positive about Shaq. They even resort to personal attacks about our families, lives, etc. If someone would say some of the things that I hear on this board to me in person, they would wind up on the receiving end of a very painfull azz kickin'! But, I usually try to keep it civil.

Now, to touch on your reply earlier, Myth_Breaker, I've watched the Diesel since he was in High School. I've seen just about every game he has played on national tv and many in person. I've watched him go from 285lbs up to 360 and back to 311. I also know that his body fat% never went above 15% (that comes from PJ and Pat Riley, 2 people whose knowledge of Shaq hold a little more credibility than your POST HISTORY). I know that he was asked to gain muscle mass to compete in the more physical Western Conference. I also know that muscle weighs more than fat, hence the weight gain. I know that getting kneed in the thigh, slamming your hip into the ground (I've done it playing ball, and I only weigh 190lbs with 11% body fat), and getting your finger bent backwards has nothing to do with your conditioning. (If you look at his performance his 1st year with the Heat, he was behind Nash in the MVP race. He got kneed in the thigh from JO, and that, along with Wade's rib, cost them a trip to the finals.)

Yes, I am a fan of Shaq. I'm also a fan of all NBA greats that were good people. I'm not a fan of Rodman, Iverson, Oakley, Laimbeer, or anyone that personifies the THUG mentality. I like people that have a positive impact on the game and their fans. I loved Jordan, I loved Kobe until he was proven to be, at best, an adulterer (sp), and I happen to appreciate what Shaq has done for the game and community. I think he was upset when someone that he has respect for attacked his credibility and basically said he faked his injuries. Any normal person probably would have said a whole lot more as a reply. He didn't reply in as classless of a manner that Walton attacked him with. And because he stood up for himself, he should be applauded, and should go out and anchor a defense and pull down 14 boards. (Oh, wait. He already did that) So quit resorting to personal attacks on me and others in here. We're all intelligent people (well, some of us are). Calling someone (Please Use More Appropriate Word), and backing it up by referencing your huge POST HISTORY (chuckle, chuckle) makes you look like the one with the mental deficiencies. Good day, mates!

(Side note-when his peers call him "The Godfather of the League", and it is a struggle to find any one of them that dislike him, that usually constitutes a good person, not a moron. And I'd love to know how a man that has to be a father of 6 children, manage multiple multi million dollar businesses, and a celebrity career can be cosidered lazy. You guys on this board seem to think that because he didn't devote every waking moment to practicing basketball, then he is lazy. Well, when Jordan and Kobe were spending all of their time shooting jumpers, I'm pretty sure that they didn't have 6 mouths to feed at home. I have one 4 year old, and I can barely find enough time to make it to the gym 4 days a week on a 40 hr. work week!!

Bottom line- Kudos to Shaq for defending himself. I'm off to the gym (To practice my free throws!) J/J

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As a whole: Shaq has been behaving like a moron for his whole life. Simple enough? I'm not so surprised you're defending him as a Heat fan - after all, he gave you your only championship - yet you're confusing Shaq's on-court achievements with his off-court behavior. Him being all-time great doesn't justify being also lazy, ignorant and juvenile jerk. Not to mention that if he had better mentality, he'd also had more success and be higher on the list of all-time greatest players...
And to make it clear: I do separate off-court and on-court issues. I've started to dislike O'Neal as a person already in his late Lakers' days and of course this dislike only grown as he forced bad trade on us and repeatedly insulted our franchise. Yet from purely basketball standpoint IMHO his legacy only grew after co-leading Heat to the championship.
But may I ask you what it all has in common with Shaq being generally rude and ignorant towards greats from the past?

[jaypo]

Was Yao out of shape? Lazy? Poor conditioning? Too fat? No, but he is out for the season with a stress fracture. You see, guys? Big centers can be injured without being out of shape. And he didn't even get kneed in the thigh, have his finger bent backwards, or suffer a contusion to the hip from landing on it.