Is Deron Williams better than John Stockton was from 97-03?

[Denizfeital]

To compare the end of Stockton's amazing career to Deron's three first years is, at least, unfair. Stockton was 40 years old there.

But... since we are here, I vote for Stockton's.



Regards,

[Ming Kong!]

Well it's rather unfair to compare the two given that Stockton was slowing down, he wasn't that 2spg player anymore, not the 17ppg guy, and getting those 12-14apg numbers. I better question would be comparing them at the same age, or in the first 3 years, which I would say Williams has the edge now. Now years 4 thru 6 would be interesting. They are different players, so it'd be difficult to access how to consider one better than the other. Comparing a player in his early 20s to one in his late 30s and early 40s is just not fair.

[erudite23]

It may not be fair, but that is the question posed. People are letting the mystique and grandeur of Stockton's entire career blind them to the question at hand: not "who was better" but "who is better, DWill at 23 or Stockton at 37".....that is an easy, easy, easy answer.

The one problem you could bring up is that the OP left waaaay too large a window for comparison. Stockton circa 97 was a much better player than Stockton of 03, as he should have been, being 6 years younger.

Listen, basketball is a young man's game. Very few players have any game left by the time they're 38. Stockton was one of the rare guys that was still pretty good. But to say that at that age he was as good as a guy who is, imo, the 3rd best point guard in the league right now is just ridiculous. Stock wasn't even a top 5 PG for the last 4 or 5 years he was in the league. Maybe not even top 8. DW easily is....and the PG crop is much better now than it was then.

[carrottop12]

It may not be fair, but that is the question posed. People are letting the mystique and grandeur of Stockton's entire career blind them to the question at hand: not "who was better" but "who is better, DWill at 23 or Stockton at 37".....that is an easy, easy, easy answer.

The one problem you could bring up is that the OP left waaaay too large a window for comparison. Stockton circa 97 was a much better player than Stockton of 03, as he should have been, being 6 years younger.

Listen, basketball is a young man's game. Very few players have any game left by the time they're 38. Stockton was one of the rare guys that was still pretty good. But to say that at that age he was as good as a guy who is, imo, the 3rd best point guard in the league right now is just ridiculous. Stock wasn't even a top 5 PG for the last 4 or 5 years he was in the league. Maybe not even top 8. DW easily is....and the PG crop is much better now than it was then.

Excellent post.

Stockton's knowledge of the game was simply unheard of at his age and the fact that his body still moved well enough to play was unbelievable. But with the speed of the game right now and the talent of the PG's at such a young age, Deron's physical abilities alone make him more valuable then Stockton was in his final few years in the league.

Personally I would love to have his leadership and knowledge coming off the bench for 10-15 minutes a night, but as far as playing 35-40 minutes a night Deron is the better player.

[ColdBlue]

Those things DO NOT come with age, else Marbury, Alston, or Telfair, wouldn't be sh*t PGs that they are. Those things are innate.

It's all relative, not innate. I think there is an inherent skill involved that is refined, but nothing is innate regarding basketball... well other than maybe Sloan.

If anything... team chemistry is a bigger factor in court awareness than anything.

[FJS]

To all the people who say the question is unfair:
I think it's pretty obvious if you compare first 3 years of Stock and Deron, Deron wins.
I think it's pretty obvious that Stockton prime is better than Deron nowadays so, I only can put one question:
Is Deron better today than Stockton was in 97-98 (second finals appareance), 99 (Jazz tiedfor best record in the league) 99-00 (Jazz 55-27, with Stockton being allstar), 00-01 Jazz with 53-29 record, or 01-02 (best season of John Stockton in stats since 96-97) and 02-03 season (47-35 season)

[jazzfan1971]

I can't believe that someone said DWill was better in leadership.

When Stockton took the floor, IMMEDIATELY, every other player on the team settled down and started playing better. He brought so much confidence to the court that you could actually see the other players change when he stepped on the floor.

Stockton would abuse other teams with his ability to play the game. He'd dominate games while scoring 11 points, never dribbling behind the back, never doing a cross over, never getting a slam dunk, but, dominate none the less.

While it's true that DWill has been dominating games for the last month or so, he's not on Stockton's level yet. But, if he can keep this level of play up for another 12-15 years, I'll be willing to consider the comparison.

Right now, I'm willing to compare DWill to Baron Davis. And Baron was no where near to Stockton IMHO.

[erudite23]

I can't believe that someone said DWill was better in leadership.

When Stockton took the floor, IMMEDIATELY, every other player on the team settled down and started playing better. He brought so much confidence to the court that you could actually see the other players change when he stepped on the floor.

Stockton would abuse other teams with his ability to play the game. He'd dominate games while scoring 11 points, never dribbling behind the back, never doing a cross over, never getting a slam dunk, but, dominate none the less.

While it's true that DWill has been dominating games for the last month or so, he's not on Stockton's level yet. But, if he can keep this level of play up for another 12-15 years, I'll be willing to consider the comparison.

Right now, I'm willing to compare DWill to Baron Davis. And Baron was no where near to Stockton IMHO.

Ummmm.....did you read the question?

Is Deron today better than Stockton towards the end of his career (97-03)?

You could put Stephen Freakin Hawking on the baketball court and all his brains wouldn't make the smallest difference in the world because HE CAN'T MOVE. Movement is a prerequisite no matter how you slice it. Some players are able to make up for a small difference in their ability to move (like Stockton was) by using their brains to mitigate against their lack of movement capabilities. This only goes so far, though, and once a minimum amount of athleticism goes, its over. Stockton had lost a lot of what he originally had by this time in his career. No one is daring to say that Deron now is as good as Stockton in his prime. But it is an easy advantage to DWill when you compare him to a much slower (and with less endurance) old-version of Stockton.

[jazzfan1971]

I disagree, in Stockton's last season he was slowing a bit on defense, but, he was STILL better than 80% of the opponents he faced IMHO.

If you want to compare 03 Stockton to 08 Williams, ok. But, if you are taking an average of 97 to 03 Stockton, Stockton was on another level than DWill. I know DWill has had a nice month, but, we're not just looking at the last month, are we?

[Pai Gow]

Yeah, Stockton wasn't some cripple directing the offense, he still played at a pretty high level, he wasn't always an athlete but his mind clearly separates the two.

[Malone Strong]

This is the reason I maintain that MPG is the dominating factor. I believe to this day that John Stockton was in good enough physical condition to continue to play 35mpg as long as he wanted. If he had played 39-41mpg in ANY of his 97-03 seasons, he would have led the league in assists and probably been an all-star shoe-in.

[ColdBlue]

if you are taking an average of 97 to 03 Stockton, Stockton was on another level than DWill. I know DWill has had a nice month, but, we're not just looking at the last month, are we?

I still take DWill 08 over Stock ME, especially if the comparison is with our current team.

[JStockLivesOn]

You can't replace the things Stock learned with so many years in the league, something Deron can't be blaimed for but you have to love what a savy veteran brings to the floor.

Other then that Deron's shooting is equal, his driving is better and his legs are obviously much younger which helps.

The Jazz are better right now having Deron on the floor then they would be with Stockton at that age, Stockt's defense had also fallen off quite a bit by that point.

I actually think Stock was a much better shooter than Deron, who is a little bit more of a streak shooter.

[JStockLivesOn]

I agree with those who have said it's a MPG issue. It's also difficult to compare them because Deron is a scorer, who happens to be a very good passer. Stockton was the best passer of all time, who happened to be a pretty good scorer.

You can say this is because of my Stockton bias (and it might very well be), but if you I would take 2003 Stock playing 40 minutes over 2008 Deron playing 40 minutes.

[FJS]

yeah, but the problem is that with 41 years, maybe Stockton couldn't play 40 min per night.

[Malone Strong]

yeah, but the problem is that with 41 years, maybe Stockton couldn't play 40 min per night.

Exactly why its difficult to compare them. Lets do a comparison of per 48 minutes stats...

[JStockLivesOn]

yeah, but the problem is that with 41 years, maybe Stockton couldn't play 40 min per night.

Well, yeah, but since this is a hypothetical we're talking about, how much are we supposed to take into account? My point is that I would take Stockton and his 2003 abilities and skillset over a 2008 Deron if their minutes were comparable. Is that just my Stockton bias? Maybe.

[dalekjazz]

Consider how stockton's stats would of looked like if he had a talented team like this? How would players like keefe, russel, anderson, otag, compare to todays team. Dwill has it easier in my opinion because of the players around him.

Now, I would have to say that
Stock advantage
Defense, Passing,

Deron Advantage
Scoring, Leadership,

Which player could probably lead their team to the title?
I think Deron because he seams to have a killer instinct when the team gets down, he caries them back up. I think Malone did that in the past with Stocktons passing of course.

You must be joking. Stockton never blasted teammates in front of the media.

[carrottop12]

-= original quote snipped =-


You must be joking. Stockton never blasted teammates in front of the media.

I've never minded calling someone out, especially when they are asking to be traded, that's fine in my book.

Especially with the results it had.

Stockton was a pure leader on the floor, unfortunately that doesn't matter to some players, Deron also didn't have the advantage of learning under Ricky Green for a few years before he started.

[dalekjazz]

Deron also didn't have the advantage of learning under Ricky Green for a few years before he started.[/quote]

Deron was taught by the great Keith McLeod. Where is Dew7/Coach to support my argument?