Leon Powe: What took so long?

[billfromBoston]

With all the recent talk on this board about Doc's coaching and particularly his usage of Rondo, I thought it may be interesting to explore these questions in regards to Leon Powe.

Unlike Rondo, Powe had absolutely no opportunity to play early in the season, being buried on the bench behind every big man on the roster.

Coming out of SL and going into training camp I was quite confident that Powe was going to be the primary backup in the front court. Certainly his play had merited it and I had solid inside information that the team had high expectations for the the 2nd year forward.

But a late burst by Glen Davis over the last two pre-season games, not only moved Davis up the depth chart but seemed to drop Powe off the face of the earth...

Now, I can logically come to a few conclusions that make sense:

1. A shorter rotation (8-9) makes more sense for a team lacking experience together.

2. Having veterans (Pollard/Scal) higher in the pecking order makes sense if a coach is trying to stress CONSISTENCY and EXECUTION as the criteria for PT

Taking these two things into account it is understandable why Powe didn't see any run at the outset of the season. But as Pollard and Scal showed their lack of productivity I thought Powe would get a chance to do something. Glen Davis wasn't particularly consistent either, so I figured there'd be a couple ops to shine.

Now, i've been a huge Leon Powe supporter for years..he's one of the first players i scouted professionally and I was convinced that the combination of his skill set and motor would compensate for his lack of prototypical height.

What i've been surprised at his just how productive he's been so quickly. Clearly he is getting more minutes than he would if KG and Perkins were playing, but he has been earning those minutes with his production on both ends of the court.

What I want to know is whether or not Powe's production over the last 10 games, (6th out of his rookie class) will earn him the bulk of the minutes behind KG/Perk going forward. And if he continues to produce the type of numbers he has been 13/7 in 25mpg, how on earth did the team go 40 games before harnessing it?

[UGA Hayes]

I think it will earn him time when KG is back, and honestly I think the reasons you cited are pretty much why Powe fell out of the rotations. Its probably one of the most irritating things to deal with as fans, but there probably is substance to the idea that letting a vet prove he isn't worth rotation minutes is good for lockerrom chemistry.

Lockerroom chemistry really probably is the hardest thing for a coach to deal with. I can't even imagine what Powe was going thinking he might not even get a chance to prove he deserves a second contract.

EDIT: ALso if you use Hollinger's PER he was actual pretty effective last year BUT he made a LOT of mistakes on rotations which I notice has improved this year, though to be honest he still seems to be in the wrong place a lot.

[tlee324]

Based on possible foul trouble and Doc likely wanting to be careful with any reoccurring injuries, I think there are valuable minutes to be had at backup center and backup PF for both Davis and Powe. I think they are more productive overall than Scal (PF) and Pollard (C), and since they have been playing well, it makes the depth "problem" not so much a problem anymore. Veal and Pollard could end up being solid third string options if Powe/Glen make themselves reliable reserves when Perk and Garnett are back at full strength.

[GonzoLays]

Just some things to consider:

1) Leon Powe has been well-rested so we might have to put an asterick by his numbers. The guys he played against had already played 40 or so games. You can't deny that helped him numbers wise.

2) Maybe Doc doesn't want to put too much wear and tear on Leon's knees so he saved him for the second half of the season.

3) Everybody can't play. I'm quite sure if you gave Gabe Pruitt 30 minutes a game he would put up some nice numbers. And that leads to my next point...

4) 90% of NBA players, if given the minutes, are going to put up nice stat lines. They are NBA players for a reason, folks. Dan Dickau used to put up 13 pts and 5 assists for the Hornets when he use to get regular minutes. Does that mean he should be a rotation player? Hell no.

5) And have you guys ever wondered why Doc started Scal instead of Leon when KG went out? Because Scal fits in better with Pierce, Rondo and Allen than Leon. Scal moves the ball, doesn't take shots, plays solid to absolutely superb rotational defense, spaces the floor and simply knows his role.

Everybody is so freaking enamored with stat lines that they forget there is a whole lot more to an NBA game than points and rebounds. But sadly, most NBA fans don't understand this.

[Falstaff]

Well, this is a pattern we've seen with younger players over the past couple years. With Jefferson particularly, and Gomes to an extent, I thought it was just Doc being an idiot. But it's happened so much now that I'm starting to think it's an intentional approach by the coaching staff. I suppose chemistry is really the best explanation for this, but maybe it's also about the younger guys taking longer to learn the system. Since there have been so many changes this season, it may be that Powe, for example, took longer to figure out how the new rotations etc. work, and that the injuries have provided him with an opportunity to prove that he's mastered them now.

What amazes me is that these 2nd round guys just continue to overachieve so consistently. It's strange because Ainge it's like Ainge is better drafting late than drafting early. It certainly bodes well considering that for the next few yearsa Boston will have late picks - seems as though Ainge can consistently find strong role players well into the second round - so having #25 - 50 picks won't prevent him from picking up an excellent player.

[tlee324]

Scalabrine may have started, but he didn't exactly prove to be a better fit than Powe, as the minutes showed he didn't really stay on the floor long. If he fit better than Powe, don't you think he'd have had more minutes? Powe played far more minutes than Scalabrine. In one of the games where he went with Veal over Powe, they lost... I guess that's a coincidence.

It's good that Doc figured out his mistake early on and doesn't go with Veal over Powe consistently.

And it isn't just about stats. Powe is playing good defense as well, rebounding well, and helping the team in crucial times on the floor, Minnesota comes to mind.

[Falstaff]

Gonzo, if you think everyone here is praising Leon just because of numbers, you haven't been watching the games. I could have told you he was playing well without ever looking at a stat sheet. The guy is 6' 8" and out-playing bigs who are taller and stronger. He's working hard, getting to the line, and playing pretty good defense, at least on the ball. The stats are a byproduct of his play during the time he gets, not of the time itself. Scalabrine (for example) could easily play 30 minutes and not come close to Leon's numbers because Scal can't do what Leon does.

[billfromBoston]

Just some things to consider:

1) Leon Powe has been well-rested so we might have to put an asterick by his numbers. The guys he played against had already played 40 or so games. You can't deny that helped him numbers wise.

2) Maybe Doc doesn't want to put too much wear and tear on Leon's knees so he saved him for the second half of the season.

3) Everybody can't play. I'm quite sure if you gave Gabe Pruitt 30 minutes a game he would put up some nice numbers. And that leads to my next point...

4) 90% of NBA players, if given the minutes, are going to put up nice stat lines. They are NBA players for a reason, folks. Dan Dickau used to put up 13 pts and 5 assists for the Hornets when he use to get regular minutes. Does that mean he should be a rotation player? Hell no.

5) And have you guys ever wondered why Doc started Scal instead of Leon when KG went out? Because Scal fits in better with Pierce, Rondo and Allen than Leon. Scal moves the ball, doesn't take shots, plays solid to absolutely superb rotational defense, spaces the floor and simply knows his role.

Everybody is so freaking enamored with stat lines that they forget there is a whole lot more to an NBA game than points and rebounds. But sadly, most NBA fans don't understand this.

...I certainly hope that "stat lines" comment wasn't directed at me...I well aware of the limitations of stat lines...my comments on his productivity have been in line with his actual contribution to the team winning games, which is unquestionable in my book...

Scal does things that are fundamentally sound, but any and every scout you talk to would tell you that what Scal does on the court would never justify more than spot minutes because of his limited ability to actually produce anything...numbers are still important because you need to rebound and score to win games...guys that put up no stats don't get 20+ minutes a night...

[Gant]

This is an interesting subject.

Steve Bulpett brought this up as a mistake by Doc this season (he didn't have any other specific criticisms). He thought Leon should have been used when the Celtics were getting outrebounded by Washington.

Leon supposedly wasn't getting the rotations down until fairly recently, which was the reason he wasn't playing. Reportedly all of a sudden it fell into place for him, which happened to coincide with all the big man injuries.

Nobody thought Baby and Powe could hold down the middle the way they have in the absence of Garnett and Perkins. (7-2 without KG!) Both have been something.

It will be interesting to see what the rotation is with Garnett back. Scalabrine is out, and who knows about Perkins?

[ddb]

Kg's injury is a blessing in disguise. AS it turns out it didn't matter that he was out for 9 games because we are 7-2 without him. On top of that KG's injury gave Leon a chance to play. With Leon playing well it gives us more depth when KG comes back. Now we have 10 guys that I feel good about on the court.

rondo, R allen, pierce, kg, perk, house, t allen, posey, powe, davis.

Our bench is looking better and better as the season rolls on. The addition of Sam cassell would provide even more depth and leadership off the bench.

Go celts!

[MVP16]

I think you pointed out most of the reason why Powe hasn't gotten much playing time up until recently...but here are the major reasons IMO.

1. With Pollard injured, he was given the first crack at the backup center in training camp. He didn't play well at all and failed to convert around the basket.

2. As the season began, Doc went with Pollard and Scal because they were veterans who he could rely on like 99% of the coaches who are more comfortable playing veterans.

3. With Pollard getting injured again, Big Baby was given the chance to be the backup center and he produced in a game against New Jersey with 6 points and 8 rebounds in 17 minutes. This moved Big Baby up the depth chart and cemented Powe as the last big on the bench. Big Baby played well when given good minutes so there was no reason to sit him for Powe.

4. We were blowing teams out so Powe got chances in garbage time to prove himself. He didn't. He was very turnover prone and averaged about a turnover every 4 minutes for the first 2 months. This didn't give Doc really any reason to play him more.

5. We were winning. We started out the year 29-3. There was no reason to make any changes to the line-up. Whatever we were doing was obviously working.

These are the 5 main reasons why Powe didn't get much action in the first 2 months. He was given minutes when we started playing poorly and getting beat on the boards. Doc gave Powe a chance and he delivered and then he got even more playing time with the injuries.

[Datruth345]

first, i am a doc supporter

but buying someone on the bench for the first half of the season, is typical of doc rivers.....think Ryan Gomes

[Celtic Esquire]

first, i am a doc supporter

but buying someone on the bench for the first half of the season, is typical of doc rivers.....think Ryan Gomes

You meant to say Ryen Gomes right?

Sorry I couldn't resist.

[Jammer]

It's more complicated than anyone would like.

1. They didn't want to drop Scal out of the rotation, although at this point I think they have concluded that they have to, mainly because of his lack of production on offense. Scal does space the floor well, pass, and handle the ball nicely for a man his size. But, the Celtics almost certainly will try to move Scal's contract at the end of the season to offset the luxury tax hit of any free agents that they sign. And if they sign Kurt Thomas, Thomas will actually replace Scal and probably Davis as well. Boston reportedly tried to trade Scal & Davis last June to Memphis, until GM Wallace realized that the fit was bad with the assets that he already had.

2. Scal is good out on the perimeter against big, mobile guys like Rasheed Wallace and Dirk Nowitski. Powe sometimes has to be instructed by his teammates where to go, has a limited offensive arsenal without an outside shot, and is not a great passer.

3. Powe is more mobile than Davis, but Davis has had a few offensive surges, to go with Davis' relatively fast hands for a big man. I think that Doc looks to see who, if anyone, among them is "ON." If Scal were going 4-5 from the field, life would be peachy. If Davis is using his fast hands, bulk and tricks to get buckets, great. I long suspected that Powe might be the steadiest, but since he doesn't complain, Doc used the early part of the season to find out what he had in Scal and Davis. Like I said, I think Scal will be moved to another team in a giveaway if possible, at the end of the season, ideally with no salary coming back. And if the team intends to sign a Free Agent point guard, that player would effectively be replacing Pruitt as "Insurance Point Guard", behind Rondo, House and Tony Allen, and Pruitt will probably then be traded also, or packaged with Scal.

4. Powe is legitamately undersized at around 6' 6". Depending on matchups, Posey's athleticism, Davis bulk, or Scalabrine's length and mobility may be better suited.

Many Celtics skipped the pre-draft measurements, but some of the one's with verifiable data are:

Verifiable Height without Shoes from pre-draft camp

6' 10.5" Kevin Garnett (at age 19) says he grew just over a half inch since then
6' 8.75" Brian Scalabrine
6' 7" James Posey
6' 6" Paul Pierce
6' 3.5" Tony Allen
5' 11.75" Eddie House

Scot Pollard has size, toughness, pedigree and 9 straight years in the playoffs. I suspect that Scot's role will grow more important as the season progresses, just in case size is needed, and especially if the Celtics are not able to sign Kurt Thomas over the summer, meaning they will be looking towards another year of being undersized at center, even though I expect Scot, Tony and Eddie House to be quickly re-signed this summer.

5. There are 3 types of players on rosters.

Starters - role obvious, rotation players 1-5
Backups - role obvious, rotation players 6-10
Insurance Men, who play if a starter or backup is hurt, rotation players 11-15

Powe is a great insurance man, who has performed admirably in his limited action as a starter, and backup.

There are certain teams/matchups where Powe can even do well as a backup, and occasionally like against the Knicks, start.

Egos and personality and self-opinions and individual versus team needs determine who is able to be an insurance man, like Scot Pollard was in Cleveland last year (behind Illgauskas, Gooden, Varejao and Donyell Marshall); or like the Celtics are reportedly looking for in another point guard, to play behind Rondo, House and Tony Allen, while effectively replacing Pruitt.

Powe is that perfect mindset who can accept being an insurance man, and step up to starter or backup, if needed. In other words, a perfect teammate.

[billfromBoston]

It's more complicated that anyone would like.

1. They didn't want to drop Scal out of the rotation, although at this point I think they have concluded that they have to, mainly because of his lack of production on offense. Scal does space the floor well, pass, and handle the ball nicely for a man his size. But, the Celtics almost certainly will try to move Scal's contract at the end of the season to offset the luxury tax hit of any free agents that they sign. And if they sign Kurt Thomas, Thomas will actually replace Scal and probably Davis as well. Boston reportedly tried to trade Scal & Davis last June to Memphis, until GM Wallace realized that the fit was bad with the assets that he already had.

2. Scal is good out on the perimeter against big, mobile guys like Rasheed Wallace and Dirk Nowitski. Powe sometimes has to be instructed by his teammates where to go, has a limited offensive arsenal without an outside shot, and is not a great passer.

3. Powe is more mobile than Davis, but Davis has had a few offensive surges, to go with Davis' relatively fast hands for a big man. I think that Doc looks to see who, if anyone, among them is "ON." If Scal were going 4-5 from the field, life would be peachy. If Davis is using his fast hands, bulk and tricks to get buckets, great. I long suspected that Powe might be the steadiest, but since he doesn't complain, Doc used the early part of the season to find out what he had in Scal and Davis. Like I said, I think Scal will be moved to another team in a giveaway if possible, at the end of the season, ideally with no salary coming back. And if the team intends to sign a Free Agent point guard, that player would effectively be replacing Pruitt as "Insurance Point Guard", behind Rondo, House and Tony Allen, and Pruitt will probably then be traded also, or packaged with Scal.

4. Powe is legitamately undersized at around 6' 6". Depending on matchups, Posey's athleticism, Davis bulk, or Scalabrine's length and mobility may be better suited.

Many Celtics skipped the pre-draft measurements, but some of the one's with verifiable data are:

Verifiable Height without Shoes from pre-draft camp

6' 10.5" Kevin Garnett (at age 19) says he grew just over a half inch since then
6' 8.75" Brian Scalabrine
6' 7" James Posey
6' 6" Paul Pierce
6' 3.5" Tony Allen
5' 11.75" Eddie House

Scot Pollard has size, toughness, pedigree and 9 straight years in the playoffs. I suspect that Scot's role will grow more important as the season progresses, just in case size is needed, and especially if the Celtics are not able to sign Kurt Thomas over the summer, meaning they will be looking towards another year of being undersized at center, even though I expect Scot, Tony and Eddie House to be quickly re-signed this summer.

5. There are 3 types of players on rosters.

Starters - role obvious, rotation players 1-5
Backups - role obvious, rotation players 6-10
Insurance Men, who play if a starter or backup is hurt, rotation players 11-15

Powe is a great insurance man, who has performed admirably in his limited action as a starter, and backup.

There are certain teams/matchups where Powe can even do well as a backup, and occasionally like against the Knicks, start.

Egos and personality and self-opinions and individual versus team needs determine who is able to be an insurance man, like Scot Pollard was in Cleveland last year (behind Illgauskas, Gooden, Varejao and Donyell Marshall); or like the Celtics are reportedly looking for in another point guard, to play behind Rondo, House and Tony Allen, while effectively replacing Pruitt.

Powe is that perfect mindset who can accept being an insurance man, and step up to starter or backup, if needed. In other words, a perfect teammate.

...i think this post is the most insightful i've seen in regards to the dynamics that people tend to gloss over...

...that being said, my feeling is that Powe still brings more to most games than the others on the roster that he's competing against....i'd say that Posey/Scal/Pollard are more situational than Powe, because Powe is a legit PF, despite his height...he's got a 9'2 standing reach and is 255lbs of pure muscle-height isn't everything...and while he doesn't USE his outside shot much (he does have one) his strengths are more valuable-rebounding, defense, easy buckets...

For a guy who's limited offensively he's also put together the best production from that position amongst the candidates...10 games, bar none: the team and Powe have been most successful with him getting those minutes...on both offense and defense over that time...

Now Powe could easily fall off and is quickly replaced when he does, as evidence by Davis's play in SA when Powe picked up two quick fouls...but I think he fills more than an "option" role in terms of what he gets done when on the court...

From what i've seen i think you start with a mind toward using Powe and adjust as the game dictates...no one else has done more with those minutes that him...

[I love heinsohn]

Don't forget, the Celtics have the worst roster in the NBA from players 4-12! Bob Ryan told me that

[elrod enchilada]

BfB--

Thanks for staring this thread. You were the one who tuned us all into Powe after the Cs drafted him in 2006, and your assessment was a bullseye.

I think most of the posters here still undervalue what Leon can bring to the table this year, not to mention down the road. He may not be pretty but he puts a lot of points on the board, all on shots in the paint, and he gets to the line. Plus he can board. His defense is not perfect but he is no Eddy Curry.

I would like to see what happens when he and KG are on the floor together.

I

[rambo_ortega]

powe will get his minutes even with kg back. he's a very big asset for us and it showed inkg's absence. just so perfect.

[billfromBoston]

BfB--

Thanks for staring this thread. You were the one who tuned us all into Powe after the Cs drafted him in 2006, and your assessment was a bullseye.

I think most of the posters here still undervalue what Leon can bring to the table this year, not to mention down the road. He may not be pretty but he puts a lot of points on the board, all on shots in the paint, and he gets to the line. Plus he can board. His defense is not perfect but he is no Eddy Curry.

I would like to see what happens when he and KG are on the floor together.

I

....with Perk, Scal, and Pollard out, we'll be seeing quite a bit of KG playing with both Powe and Davis...i'm really hoping that their play over the west coast swing inspires the team to stick with that group more often...Perkins is a big part of that too, but i'd like to see 3 out of 4 getting the minutes every night instead of parsing it out between all 4 nightly...

[crm0922]

-= original quote snipped =-



You meant to say Ryen Gomes right?

huh?