Trainwreck Season... a recap
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Trainwreck Season... a recap
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fatlever
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Trainwreck Season... a recap
Problems Galore
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chrbal
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1- Its been an obvious problem since year one, otherwise known as "lets build the greatest summer league team ever". Then the team makes it worse by overbidding on nobodys (Harrington) and bringing in "their guys" (McMinus).
2- Roy seemed a good fit at the time and now seems like the teams big mistake in passing on him. Can't really say anything else.
3- Next.
4- i still like that this team got him. you can't blame him for the team not surrounding Jason and Gerald with more talent (key guys and role player types). To answer your question...i don't really know. What would they have done with that cap space???
5- I think hes a victim of the coaching staff in the same way (but more so) that Hermann was. I think with a coach who knows how to utililze Matt, he'd be that much better off.
6- Good question.
7- Bad trade, it was just a bad trade. How Charlotte didn't get a draft pick out of that is beyond me. It was never said publicly, but it was obvious that Joe Dumars wanted to erase the mistake of signing Nazr. Charlotte gift wraps two young expirings and doesn't want anything else back. What makes this worse is the fact that guys like Desagana Diop (i really think he would be a good fit for this roster) and Francisco Elson are readily available.
8- it blows my mind that this team got so desperate, so fast. Brezec wasn't working and the team didn't really seem to need major production at center. So did they start Hollins or Davidson? No they kept starting Brezec. When that didn't work, did they bench Brezec? No, they trade him for Nazr????
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its like there is no idea on how to build a team.
2- Roy seemed a good fit at the time and now seems like the teams big mistake in passing on him. Can't really say anything else.
3- Next.
4- i still like that this team got him. you can't blame him for the team not surrounding Jason and Gerald with more talent (key guys and role player types). To answer your question...i don't really know. What would they have done with that cap space???
5- I think hes a victim of the coaching staff in the same way (but more so) that Hermann was. I think with a coach who knows how to utililze Matt, he'd be that much better off.
6- Good question.
7- Bad trade, it was just a bad trade. How Charlotte didn't get a draft pick out of that is beyond me. It was never said publicly, but it was obvious that Joe Dumars wanted to erase the mistake of signing Nazr. Charlotte gift wraps two young expirings and doesn't want anything else back. What makes this worse is the fact that guys like Desagana Diop (i really think he would be a good fit for this roster) and Francisco Elson are readily available.
8- it blows my mind that this team got so desperate, so fast. Brezec wasn't working and the team didn't really seem to need major production at center. So did they start Hollins or Davidson? No they kept starting Brezec. When that didn't work, did they bench Brezec? No, they trade him for Nazr????
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its like there is no idea on how to build a team.
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floppymoose
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fatlever, that is an excellent post and I agree with all of it.
It's easy in a this kind of situation to fall in love with some of your players who are working hard every night playing for a losing team. All I can say is, don't. The Cats should not be afraid of making bold moves. If you get a chance to send Jason somewhere for youth and expirings, do it.
Try to get in position to draft or trade for a PG. Trades for good PGs don't happen often. When they do it's because the PG is old (Kidd trade) or has fallen out of favor and perceived as high risk (Davis, prior Kidd trade). If you get a chance to roll the dice on someone who's stock is low, by all means go for it. What have you got to lose?
But I hope that the Cats do well in the lottery and get a great young pg to build around.
MJ needs a a new coach.
The coaching situation in the nba is pretty whacked. Most of the good coaches are all clearly with their last team (Sloan, Jackson, Nelson, Popovich) or wouldn't fit the Cats (D'Antoni) or would be impossible to pry away (McMillan, Johnson).
MJ either needs to find an unknown, which is very hard because a full 90% of them end up sucking (Theus might be in the 10%), or find someone decent who could be lured away (Lawrence Frank?). Maybe if you do great in the lotto, Larry Brown might be lured out of retirement?
It's easy in a this kind of situation to fall in love with some of your players who are working hard every night playing for a losing team. All I can say is, don't. The Cats should not be afraid of making bold moves. If you get a chance to send Jason somewhere for youth and expirings, do it.
Try to get in position to draft or trade for a PG. Trades for good PGs don't happen often. When they do it's because the PG is old (Kidd trade) or has fallen out of favor and perceived as high risk (Davis, prior Kidd trade). If you get a chance to roll the dice on someone who's stock is low, by all means go for it. What have you got to lose?
But I hope that the Cats do well in the lottery and get a great young pg to build around.
MJ needs a a new coach.
The coaching situation in the nba is pretty whacked. Most of the good coaches are all clearly with their last team (Sloan, Jackson, Nelson, Popovich) or wouldn't fit the Cats (D'Antoni) or would be impossible to pry away (McMillan, Johnson).
MJ either needs to find an unknown, which is very hard because a full 90% of them end up sucking (Theus might be in the 10%), or find someone decent who could be lured away (Lawrence Frank?). Maybe if you do great in the lotto, Larry Brown might be lured out of retirement?
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chrbal
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I don't know, I think Jeff Van Gundy would be great here. I'm pretty sure his name was thrown around before this season (by us, mostly).
New York was stupid to ever let him go and Houston was just a poor fit. I really think that Jeff needs a team he can basically mold ( gee what 4th year team fits that idea).
He gives the team much needed experience and I think he has been humbled to where he would appreciate the gig.
What makes his unemployment as a head coach so messed up is that in his 8 full seasons of coaching in the NBA hes had only ONE sub .500 season and guys like Randy Wittman and Isiah Thomas have head coaching jobs
New York was stupid to ever let him go and Houston was just a poor fit. I really think that Jeff needs a team he can basically mold ( gee what 4th year team fits that idea).
He gives the team much needed experience and I think he has been humbled to where he would appreciate the gig.
What makes his unemployment as a head coach so messed up is that in his 8 full seasons of coaching in the NBA hes had only ONE sub .500 season and guys like Randy Wittman and Isiah Thomas have head coaching jobs
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Rich4114
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1. True, our core players have not shown the ability to be a leader. Felton said he was ready to be the leader during interviews in pre-season, and he's shown bits of it at a time but not consistantly.
2. I think I have to disagree with you here. Everyone has their own interpretation of a "pass first pg" or "pure pg" or "combo guard". Felton is a PG who is perfectly capable of running this team successfuly and making plays for the players around him. He is excellent at threading the needle, making a play to draw the defense and get the ball to an open man, or drive and dish. The bigger problem is half of the time he gets guys open shots or shots in the lane, they're clanking it off the iron or not capitalizing. He can certainly be careless with the ball and there was a stretch this season where he looked like crap. But aside from most of January, he has played very well for us at the few mins he's played PG. The problem is being that he is a PG who can score and get into the paint, Vincent is trying to do what Bernie did and make him into a combo guard. I personally think Felton is a crappy SG but a very good PG. We choose to not use the guys we have in the best way possible, so there's going to be inconsistency and problems across the board. I think he works very well with J-Rich also, and I still think J-Rich was an awesome addition to play the SG spot on this team. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if a large % of Felton's assists come from J-Rich scores. I think he's our long term PG solution, but what I'd like to see is him be more aggressive and firey. Yell at the refs, show more anger, get pissed off, do whatever you can to let everyone know this is your team. That can be said for a few other guys as well, but it will be more important for him as a floor leader. And with that if he performs consistantly and plays hard every night, we'll be just fine at starting PG
3. Completely agree, we really whiffed on this one. It's so frustrating seeing them get a little aggressive in making some moves but then wasting it all by trying to go cheap with the head coach. This guy is clueless, he doesn't have the players respect, he can't manage a rotation, he has constant mis-que's, and he burns timeouts like we have an unlimited amount. Cut your losses and let this guy go. Bring in someone who knows how to win and can get the most out of these guys. There's 10 coachs out there that are available we could bring in and I 100% believe would result in 8-12 extra wins with this exact roster.
4. I'm happy we added J-Rich. He's a lot more 3pt happy than I thought he'd be and I don't like how he's sort of bad a FT shooting for being such a good outside shooter, but he has certainly increased the talent level of this team. He fits well with the other guys we've placed on this team. I feel bad for him being thrown into this situation because I feel like if we were winning, he would be giving us even more than he's shown. Lately he's been flat and we saw what he was capable of when he was dropping 30+ppg during that one stretch.
5. Carroll provides nothing to us this season. Like chrbal mentioned, I think he's another victim of the coaching staff. He can't create his own shot, we for some reason use him as a SF, and he's a very poor defender. What Carroll is good at is spot up shooting. Make a move, get him an open shot, and he makes them. But this season his confidence is so low that he can't even make FT's like he was the past two years. None the less, we're giving him 4m/yr so he needs to find a way to make something happen.
6. Okafor, much like Felton, has been put in a position that makes it difficult for him to improve from where he was last season. He's actually shown us more offensively, and I like the fact that he had it out with Vincent. Too bad Vincent doesn't want to play him consistantly at the right points in a game. There's always times where he has Nazr in there in the 4th and Okafor is riding the pine. All this while Mcinnis is getting clutch time minutes. I don't get it at all, Okafor is one of your most important players if not your most important and you expect to win in the 4th quarter with him on the bench? Does anyone realize the amount of minutes we give guys on this team who would either not make another teams roster or just ride the pine if they did? Okafor still needs to get better at FT shooting and intensity. I like how he's trying to dunk more now and it's helping him. Rebounding and blocking always come naturally, but he just gets knocked out of a rythem so often and he looks so annoyed/frustrated. I feel bad for him and if he wants out at seasons' end then it's our own fault.
7. It had to be done. We had nothing on the inside next to Okafor and Primoz was a waste. Herrmman was also a waste because Vincent decided he wasn't good enough to be productive for us (well not as good as Mcinnis, lol....). But at the end of the day, if we use Nazr as a Center/PF NEXT to Okafor it helps us reduce the lack of rebounding. Not to mention, Nazr has actually played very well for us since coming here so I'm happy with the trade. Sure he's kind of expensive, but if you want a decent 7 footer, you're gonna have to pay.
8. That was my worst fear, being the Warriors (up until recently) of the East. Where you're consistantly picking 6-12 in the draft, maybe on the edge of an 8th seed but never in a position to take the next step into the top 5 in your conference. This is where we're headed if we don't make big changes this summer.
I think we've got a core that allows us to compete. I agree, step one is can sam and bring in a real coach. No more of this NBDL nonsense. Bring in someone who can build on Bernie's system of hard work and that the players will respect. I also think we'll have a chance to make a big step forward simply if May and Ammo come back healty and Ammo looks more like what we thought he'd be coming out of the draft. We'd also need to get lucky in the draft and land a powerful scoring big. I don't think you can deal the pick 2 years in a row. If none of those go our way, then you're looking at sucking again next season or you're gonna have to trade a core piece and start over or semi-start over. Okafor and Wallace have the biggest value. The only position we can trade and replace easily would be SF really. We also need a real backup PG and to not let blaring needs go ignored this summer.
2. I think I have to disagree with you here. Everyone has their own interpretation of a "pass first pg" or "pure pg" or "combo guard". Felton is a PG who is perfectly capable of running this team successfuly and making plays for the players around him. He is excellent at threading the needle, making a play to draw the defense and get the ball to an open man, or drive and dish. The bigger problem is half of the time he gets guys open shots or shots in the lane, they're clanking it off the iron or not capitalizing. He can certainly be careless with the ball and there was a stretch this season where he looked like crap. But aside from most of January, he has played very well for us at the few mins he's played PG. The problem is being that he is a PG who can score and get into the paint, Vincent is trying to do what Bernie did and make him into a combo guard. I personally think Felton is a crappy SG but a very good PG. We choose to not use the guys we have in the best way possible, so there's going to be inconsistency and problems across the board. I think he works very well with J-Rich also, and I still think J-Rich was an awesome addition to play the SG spot on this team. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if a large % of Felton's assists come from J-Rich scores. I think he's our long term PG solution, but what I'd like to see is him be more aggressive and firey. Yell at the refs, show more anger, get pissed off, do whatever you can to let everyone know this is your team. That can be said for a few other guys as well, but it will be more important for him as a floor leader. And with that if he performs consistantly and plays hard every night, we'll be just fine at starting PG
3. Completely agree, we really whiffed on this one. It's so frustrating seeing them get a little aggressive in making some moves but then wasting it all by trying to go cheap with the head coach. This guy is clueless, he doesn't have the players respect, he can't manage a rotation, he has constant mis-que's, and he burns timeouts like we have an unlimited amount. Cut your losses and let this guy go. Bring in someone who knows how to win and can get the most out of these guys. There's 10 coachs out there that are available we could bring in and I 100% believe would result in 8-12 extra wins with this exact roster.
4. I'm happy we added J-Rich. He's a lot more 3pt happy than I thought he'd be and I don't like how he's sort of bad a FT shooting for being such a good outside shooter, but he has certainly increased the talent level of this team. He fits well with the other guys we've placed on this team. I feel bad for him being thrown into this situation because I feel like if we were winning, he would be giving us even more than he's shown. Lately he's been flat and we saw what he was capable of when he was dropping 30+ppg during that one stretch.
5. Carroll provides nothing to us this season. Like chrbal mentioned, I think he's another victim of the coaching staff. He can't create his own shot, we for some reason use him as a SF, and he's a very poor defender. What Carroll is good at is spot up shooting. Make a move, get him an open shot, and he makes them. But this season his confidence is so low that he can't even make FT's like he was the past two years. None the less, we're giving him 4m/yr so he needs to find a way to make something happen.
6. Okafor, much like Felton, has been put in a position that makes it difficult for him to improve from where he was last season. He's actually shown us more offensively, and I like the fact that he had it out with Vincent. Too bad Vincent doesn't want to play him consistantly at the right points in a game. There's always times where he has Nazr in there in the 4th and Okafor is riding the pine. All this while Mcinnis is getting clutch time minutes. I don't get it at all, Okafor is one of your most important players if not your most important and you expect to win in the 4th quarter with him on the bench? Does anyone realize the amount of minutes we give guys on this team who would either not make another teams roster or just ride the pine if they did? Okafor still needs to get better at FT shooting and intensity. I like how he's trying to dunk more now and it's helping him. Rebounding and blocking always come naturally, but he just gets knocked out of a rythem so often and he looks so annoyed/frustrated. I feel bad for him and if he wants out at seasons' end then it's our own fault.
7. It had to be done. We had nothing on the inside next to Okafor and Primoz was a waste. Herrmman was also a waste because Vincent decided he wasn't good enough to be productive for us (well not as good as Mcinnis, lol....). But at the end of the day, if we use Nazr as a Center/PF NEXT to Okafor it helps us reduce the lack of rebounding. Not to mention, Nazr has actually played very well for us since coming here so I'm happy with the trade. Sure he's kind of expensive, but if you want a decent 7 footer, you're gonna have to pay.
8. That was my worst fear, being the Warriors (up until recently) of the East. Where you're consistantly picking 6-12 in the draft, maybe on the edge of an 8th seed but never in a position to take the next step into the top 5 in your conference. This is where we're headed if we don't make big changes this summer.
I think we've got a core that allows us to compete. I agree, step one is can sam and bring in a real coach. No more of this NBDL nonsense. Bring in someone who can build on Bernie's system of hard work and that the players will respect. I also think we'll have a chance to make a big step forward simply if May and Ammo come back healty and Ammo looks more like what we thought he'd be coming out of the draft. We'd also need to get lucky in the draft and land a powerful scoring big. I don't think you can deal the pick 2 years in a row. If none of those go our way, then you're looking at sucking again next season or you're gonna have to trade a core piece and start over or semi-start over. Okafor and Wallace have the biggest value. The only position we can trade and replace easily would be SF really. We also need a real backup PG and to not let blaring needs go ignored this summer.
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fatlever
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rich, it basically sounds like you are content with the status quo, outside of felton playing more pg and getting a new coach. this team is just not good enough to compete with the top teams. next season, add any coach you want and play felton 45 minutes a game at pg and we still wont be good enough to win more than 45 games max. then what? nazr and jrich have been solid vets who, have probably been our two most consistent players this season. they have been everything we expected as players and possibly even better. BUT in 2010 jrich and nazr will be making a combined 22 million dollars. for the long term success of this franchise, do you really think the moves for jrich and nazr will benefit the team?
i'm just being realistic here. we took a huge risk this year adding jrich and nazr at the expense of a lottery pick and a crap load of cap room and i just dont think anyone can sit here and say it worked out for the best. i would gladly take a do-over on both of those trades.... just as we would all take a do-over on the felton/may for paul draft and the ammo over gay/roy draft.
i'm just being realistic here. we took a huge risk this year adding jrich and nazr at the expense of a lottery pick and a crap load of cap room and i just dont think anyone can sit here and say it worked out for the best. i would gladly take a do-over on both of those trades.... just as we would all take a do-over on the felton/may for paul draft and the ammo over gay/roy draft.
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Walt Cronkite
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I think one of the things my build analysis post showed was that Ray has the physical potential to be Mike Bibby.
Mike Bibby can thread the needle. He's capable of running a team successfully, but at the end of the day, he's still a band-aid. If Atlanta could take Paul in exchange for Marvin or Roy for Sheldon, you can bet your ass they'd do it.
That said, I currently like the Jrich/Nazr moves and have trouble looking at what things will be like in 2010. I FEAR, however, that we are destined for mediocrity as currently constructed, which as everyone knows is a pro sports killer.
Mike Bibby can thread the needle. He's capable of running a team successfully, but at the end of the day, he's still a band-aid. If Atlanta could take Paul in exchange for Marvin or Roy for Sheldon, you can bet your ass they'd do it.
That said, I currently like the Jrich/Nazr moves and have trouble looking at what things will be like in 2010. I FEAR, however, that we are destined for mediocrity as currently constructed, which as everyone knows is a pro sports killer.
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Rich4114
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I would do the J-Rich trade over again. But I also would've handled free agency much differently. I would've made a run at some of the guys available. I would've also offered Hammer 2.5m per and made a push right away for Varejo or Darko.
I am content with the core of our team. We tried building a team Detroit style and I think we have to continue doing that if we want to win. We have no choice but to hope May and/or Ammo turn out to be big positives for us also. I'm not sure I'd do the Nazr trade because I think at the beggining of the season we had better options using what we gave up to got him, but it actually did work out decently for us. But it's a domino effect. If we addressed these issues ahead of time instead of shutting down after resigning Wallace, none of this would be as big a problem.
I think I would do the same things you mentioned with the Gay/Roy and Paul for Felton/May things. I'm more certain I would've dealt #5/#13 for #3 than I am taking Gay over Ammo though. I wouldn't have taken Roy back then because he didn't seem like he'd be this good and he blew off his work out with us. The last thing we need us a good player who doesn't want to play here.
But getting back on track, I do think we have to make some mid-level moves to get to where we want to be. If we build the team with a lot of quality players we can be a contender. The only way we land any superstars is if we dump the entire roster. Crash looks like he can be one at times but then he turns a bit selfish and our poor offense is even more exposed. Historically, teams win championships with dominant big men. Right now we have that defensively, but there's NOTHING remotely close to an offensive minded PF playing next to him.
Almost all of our problems point to coach and lack of depth. We fix those two things first and then see what we've got. I look at 2007-2008 as a wasted year because of how the coaching situation, big man situation, and backup pg situation was handled. We have the most talented bobcats team yet but I feel like we're wasting it.
I'm also sticking with Felton as our PG unless we can replace him with someone who is better right now. That is one of the hardest positions to fill and some teams go years without a quality PG running the show. If we start over in the draft with a new PG, be prepared to wait another 3 years for it to pay off.
Here's a list of things I think a team needs to be a contender. Which one of these are we missing?
Defensive centerpiece to play C (we have one but use him at PF)
Solid or Excellent PG to run the show, get in the paint, and make plays (some may argue, but I think we've got that... though we use him at SG)
Lock down defender (Dudley seems like he has what it takes, but he's gonna need a few years)
Depth from top to bottom (We've seriously lack in depth)
An experienced coach who knows how to win (definitely don't have that)
20+ ppg scorer (we've got 2 of 'em)
Scoring threat off the bench to play 6th man role (supposed to be Carroll)
Did I miss anything?
I am content with the core of our team. We tried building a team Detroit style and I think we have to continue doing that if we want to win. We have no choice but to hope May and/or Ammo turn out to be big positives for us also. I'm not sure I'd do the Nazr trade because I think at the beggining of the season we had better options using what we gave up to got him, but it actually did work out decently for us. But it's a domino effect. If we addressed these issues ahead of time instead of shutting down after resigning Wallace, none of this would be as big a problem.
I think I would do the same things you mentioned with the Gay/Roy and Paul for Felton/May things. I'm more certain I would've dealt #5/#13 for #3 than I am taking Gay over Ammo though. I wouldn't have taken Roy back then because he didn't seem like he'd be this good and he blew off his work out with us. The last thing we need us a good player who doesn't want to play here.
But getting back on track, I do think we have to make some mid-level moves to get to where we want to be. If we build the team with a lot of quality players we can be a contender. The only way we land any superstars is if we dump the entire roster. Crash looks like he can be one at times but then he turns a bit selfish and our poor offense is even more exposed. Historically, teams win championships with dominant big men. Right now we have that defensively, but there's NOTHING remotely close to an offensive minded PF playing next to him.
Almost all of our problems point to coach and lack of depth. We fix those two things first and then see what we've got. I look at 2007-2008 as a wasted year because of how the coaching situation, big man situation, and backup pg situation was handled. We have the most talented bobcats team yet but I feel like we're wasting it.
I'm also sticking with Felton as our PG unless we can replace him with someone who is better right now. That is one of the hardest positions to fill and some teams go years without a quality PG running the show. If we start over in the draft with a new PG, be prepared to wait another 3 years for it to pay off.
Here's a list of things I think a team needs to be a contender. Which one of these are we missing?
Defensive centerpiece to play C (we have one but use him at PF)
Solid or Excellent PG to run the show, get in the paint, and make plays (some may argue, but I think we've got that... though we use him at SG)
Lock down defender (Dudley seems like he has what it takes, but he's gonna need a few years)
Depth from top to bottom (We've seriously lack in depth)
An experienced coach who knows how to win (definitely don't have that)
20+ ppg scorer (we've got 2 of 'em)
Scoring threat off the bench to play 6th man role (supposed to be Carroll)
Did I miss anything?
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Walt Cronkite
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I hate these type of threads because there's too much to reply to so no one reads everything and replying to it becomes really tedious.
Anyway, I think we can use a 2nd on a potential pg player and sign a player in the offseason to play PG next year. Steve Blake receives a lot of hate (I know I'm not a fan) but he's done wonders for shoring up a position on a team that is over achieving.
I think the coach is a problem, but I think the construction of the team is a larger one, and this is not a knock on any player in specific, just a general problem overall.
Anyway, I think we can use a 2nd on a potential pg player and sign a player in the offseason to play PG next year. Steve Blake receives a lot of hate (I know I'm not a fan) but he's done wonders for shoring up a position on a team that is over achieving.
I think the coach is a problem, but I think the construction of the team is a larger one, and this is not a knock on any player in specific, just a general problem overall.
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DaBassSource
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I would not say that you need an Excellent PG to win championships...I would say a good one but you need a playmaker that person does not have to be the PG. And as for Felton I have said it before he is a good enough PG that he could run a very good team, but he can't get a team, that is still finding its way, over the hump...at least not yet. He we be a good fit on one of the run and gun west conf teams...Rich4114 wrote:Solid or Excellent PG to run the show, get in the paint, and make plays (some may argue, but I think we've got that... though we use him at SG)
Did I miss anything?
BTW this Lakers/Sun game has been fun to watch...now that is basketball...
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fatlever
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one thing henry williams always says (that i agree with) is his talk about championship teams. he says you need one superstar, one capable star and one bailout guy. we have the capable star in wallace and the bailout guy in jrich. but we are lacking the superstar. thats the real trick with any team. how do you get a superstar.
detroit is the only team in the last 30 years to win without a superstar.
detroit is the only team in the last 30 years to win without a superstar.
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Paydro70
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Depends on what you consider a "superstar" and what not, but in general I agree Fats. Detroit was a completely bizarre title-winner, when considered in the context of the past 20+ years of NBA champions. All the Spurs teams had Duncan, the Lakers had Shaq, Miami had Wade, the Bulls had Jordan, the Rockets had Hakeem, the Pistons had Isiah/Dumars, and then it's Magic/Bird back to the 82/3 76ers.
Without a hall-of-famer, it is extremely unlikely that you can win a title. Ray is not that guy, neither is Gerald, neither is JRich, and neither is Emeka. So what now?
I thought this team had potential to really gel and become a good squad, but at this point it looks as though it's hopeless. I agree with Fats, even correcting for the coach, this is no better than a 45 win team even with great depth. So in order to build that team, we have two options: trades, free agency, and the draft. Picking up an elite free agent will not be possible for years unless we manage some trades first. Wallace is the only piece that I don't think we'll ever get good value trading, and Emeka (assuming we sign him to as reasonable a contract as Crash got) is the only guy close to that status. At this point JRich, Ray, and the rest of the team can't be viewed as anything other than a salary sink of mediocrity. I can't see us building anything better out of the team that we have right now without a dramatic move for a young stud who could develop into the superstar that we need.
Without a hall-of-famer, it is extremely unlikely that you can win a title. Ray is not that guy, neither is Gerald, neither is JRich, and neither is Emeka. So what now?
I thought this team had potential to really gel and become a good squad, but at this point it looks as though it's hopeless. I agree with Fats, even correcting for the coach, this is no better than a 45 win team even with great depth. So in order to build that team, we have two options: trades, free agency, and the draft. Picking up an elite free agent will not be possible for years unless we manage some trades first. Wallace is the only piece that I don't think we'll ever get good value trading, and Emeka (assuming we sign him to as reasonable a contract as Crash got) is the only guy close to that status. At this point JRich, Ray, and the rest of the team can't be viewed as anything other than a salary sink of mediocrity. I can't see us building anything better out of the team that we have right now without a dramatic move for a young stud who could develop into the superstar that we need.
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W_HAMILTON
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fatlever wrote:next season, add any coach you want and play felton 45 minutes a game at pg and we still wont be good enough to win more than 45 games max.
Bring in a good PG that makes his team mates better and knows how to run a team, and another coach, and we could win 45 games if healthy. I wouldn't consider that a failure. That's a decent record for a team that's still young like us.
That's probably good enough for the playoffs. Add in May and Morrison, plus our hopefully high draft pick or a good veteran if we choose to trade our pick again, and that team has talent to compete for the playoffs and even sneak out out a series win.
Yes, the Richardson deal was very good for this team. We'd be even more of a train wreck without him this season. Okafor/Wallace/Richardson are good enough center pieces of a better than average team. Add in lesser guys that are still quality, like Felton (in a reduced role), Mohammed, Carroll, and next season May/Morrison, and that team is good enough to do something other than just disappoint.
I couldn't care less about what type of deals they sign, because we aren't going to be able to have used that cap space to sign anyone really good anyway (and if we did we would have had to overpay like in Rashard Lewis' case). And if any of these trades lately have shown anything, expiring contracts are apparently worth more than good players anyway, so I couldn't care about what our cap situation will look like. We should have the MLE and exceptions like that, which is all we need to bring in some extra pieces to make us better. Even if you had all the cap space in the world, that's not going to bring in a superstar.
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doc.end
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I t can't be changed but - Paul? Roy?fatlever wrote:one thing henry williams always says (that i agree with) is his talk about championship teams. he says you need one superstar, one capable star and one bailout guy. we have the capable star in wallace and the bailout guy in jrich. but we are lacking the superstar. thats the real trick with any team. how do you get a superstar.
detroit is the only team in the last 30 years to win without a superstar.
Train Wreck
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fluffernutter
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Train Wreck
I see the regression or "treading water" of a lot of players (Carroll, Okafor, Felton, GWall, heck the whole team, the only one who has clearly gotten better is Dudley) as a very clear indication that the coaching is not where it needs to be.
Either that, or magically everyone is having a crappy year. Applying Occam's razor, the simple explanation is likely true, i.e. coaching.
I'm not letting any player off the hook; you can and should learn to improve even in a bad situation with bad coaching. But I also understand that such a situation makes improving much more difficult.
Part of the tragedy is that, because of injury and the current coaching, we STILL won't know where we are at the start of next season.
Will May ever play again? Will Ammo? Will Felton be the starter? Is Okafor a Center or Forward, and how much is he worth? Is Carroll a flash-in-the-pan? What are the team's MAJOR and MINOR needs? Is our coach going to last another season?
That is what kills me. This stupid season has answered almost no questions. (injuries definitely did not help, either)
Either that, or magically everyone is having a crappy year. Applying Occam's razor, the simple explanation is likely true, i.e. coaching.
I'm not letting any player off the hook; you can and should learn to improve even in a bad situation with bad coaching. But I also understand that such a situation makes improving much more difficult.
Part of the tragedy is that, because of injury and the current coaching, we STILL won't know where we are at the start of next season.
Will May ever play again? Will Ammo? Will Felton be the starter? Is Okafor a Center or Forward, and how much is he worth? Is Carroll a flash-in-the-pan? What are the team's MAJOR and MINOR needs? Is our coach going to last another season?
That is what kills me. This stupid season has answered almost no questions. (injuries definitely did not help, either)
Re: Train Wreck
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W_HAMILTON
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Re: Train Wreck
fluffernutter wrote:That is what kills me. This stupid season has answered almost no questions. (injuries definitely did not help, either)
Well, I guess that just depends what questions you had.
Two of my four biggest questions have been easily answered (Is Vincent a good coach? Is Felton capable of running this team?). The other two were concerning Morrison and May, but they've been injured. But those were lesser questions for me anyway, because the most important were what type of production we would get from our two most important positions, and the answer has been very little.