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OT: Florida/Michigan delegates, should they count?

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Post#41 » by Gerhalt11 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:57 pm

DontPushMe wrote:Im an obama supporter, so you know.

With that in mind, i think they need to redo both elections as caucuses and then count them. I dont think you can count a poll when you originally say it wont count. Im sure there were a lot of people who didnt show up to vote because they didnt think it would count, i know for a fact a few of my friends didnt bother for that reason.

I say caucus because from what ive heard they are cheaper and easier. Everything ive heard says that if its reheld it will be a caucus.


There were plenty of PSA's and newspaper articles that said vote anyway because in the end, it's probably going to count. If people didn't vote, that's their own fault.
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Post#42 » by DontPushMe » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:00 pm

Max Power wrote:I think it's going to be Obama v Mccain. Neither the Republicans or Democrats have good candidates.

As for Dubya, I think in the end, the halls of history will vindicate everything he's done.

I disagree completely. I think you can go down 6 or 7 candidates on the democratic side and all of them would be excellent presidents. Obama, Clinton, Edwards, Biden, Dodd, Richardson, Kucinich. Those are great options.

And youve gotta be kidding me if you think bush will be viewed well in history. This era in american history will end up being one best forgotten. I cant imagine a president doing a worse job than bush has done. The only way to do worse than him would be to literally try to do as bad of a job as you could.
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Post#43 » by maginno » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:23 pm

DontPushMe wrote:-This era in american history will end up being one best forgotten.


Not possible. It is the Era that brought us 9/11. Bush's State of the union's address then was a thing of pure beauty and his popularity soared in agreement with how he handled himelf then. Historic moments that will not be forgotten because 9/11 will never be forgotten. Unfortunately he then used that political edge and initiated a war in Iraq that was his down fall.

Anyway if we start using this thread to go after politicians we do or don't like it will ger combustible. This thread is just about the delegates counting or not.
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Post#44 » by Max Power » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:24 pm

Gerhalt11 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



My kneejerk reaction to this was to rip everything you just said to shreds, but that would turn this thread down a dangerous road and I'll save that for the general forum.

I do love the Barack is cookin' line, though. Hadn't heard that one, yet.


That was pretty good huh Gerhalt? I wasn't outwardly bashing or endorsing anyone, just making it clear that the 08 candidates have some real flaws. There are no Ronald Reagans in this bunch.
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Post#45 » by Max Power » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:32 pm

DontPushMe wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


I disagree completely. I think you can go down 6 or 7 candidates on the democratic side and all of them would be excellent presidents. Obama, Clinton, Edwards, Biden, Dodd, Richardson, Kucinich. Those are great options.

And youve gotta be kidding me if you think bush will be viewed well in history. This era in american history will end up being one best forgotten. I cant imagine a president doing a worse job than bush has done. The only way to do worse than him would be to literally try to do as bad of a job as you could.


The era will be looked on badly, no question. But I think the policies Bush enacted (non war initiatives) will be looked at very positively. The first thing he did was cut taxes, and we all got checks, and again, when things are looking down he passes an economic package, that again will result in money in our pockets. That helps the economy. The patriot act was another.

As far as Iraq, yeah he could have handled that waay better. But in 30 years when Iraq is free, and without turmoil (yes, I think it will happen) people will see that going in there was necessary, even if Bush was given false info about weapons. Blame the CIA for that, not President Bush. We took out perhaps the worlds most vicious dictator, it needed to happen.

When it counts I think people will realize that Bush's presidency was perhaps the most difficult in history aside from the Revolution, as he had no precident for how to handle attacks on our own soil. He dealt with things swiftly, and without mercy, and at the time, it may have been the best call.

How can anyone dog that man about Iraq, that scuzbag Huessien had a state sponsored bounty on Bush Sr's head, and you expect him to negotiate?
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Post#46 » by Gerhalt11 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:42 pm

Max Power wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



That was pretty good huh Gerhalt? I wasn't outwardly bashing or endorsing anyone, just making it clear that the 08 candidates have some real flaws. There are no Ronald Reagans in this bunch.


You're right. My real beef was the "Bush will be vindicated line." And I could write an essay on why I think that's wrong. But that's your opinion, which is fine.

And I do agree that every candidate in this race seems to have a stigma attached to them. Barack and experience, McCain and age, Hillary and...well...being Hillary.

I think that's the fault of the news networks. Can I just say that I think the 24-hour news network is the worst thing to ever happen to this country.
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Post#47 » by Max Power » Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:03 am

Thats cool Gerhalt, we'll simply agree to disagree on President Bush. I don't blame him for everything, if anything he's probably most guilty of blindly trusting everything his people have told him. We really can't determine anything until years from now, by 2012, are we still in Iraq or does it prosper. We all just have to see.
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Post#48 » by UCFJayBird » Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:27 am

Yea i'll agree we'll have to see how Bush is remembered in say 10 years. I will say this, it is a great thing that we took Hussein out. I think that was necessary. I don't agree with how we went about it, I don't agree with how we've stayed so long. I don't agree with how we went in without a good strategy and I don't agree with how we've racked up such an unbelievable deficit because of it.
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Post#49 » by Max Power » Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:25 pm

Jaybird, I agree with all those things too. It was most certainly rushed, and W. was stubborn in changing tactics that started to fail. I know a lot of people talk about this deficit stuff, but the reality is our national debt rarely if ever has affected the average American, so that's something I don't even think about. We've never had our taxes raised for that, that I am aware of anyway.
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Post#50 » by UCFJayBird » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:27 pm

Anyone else find it hypocritical that Clinton wants the superdelegates to be able to vote for whoever they want, "because it's the rules laid out" (or something along those lines), but then doesn't want the rules to be enforced with the FL and Michigan delegates. Can't have it both ways Hillary.
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Post#51 » by craig01 » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:31 pm

I find most if not all politicians to be hypocritical.
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Post#52 » by UCFJayBird » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:47 pm

good point!
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Post#53 » by bstein14 » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:52 pm

As someone from Michigan I think its really stupid for our votes, and Florida's votes not to count.

Who are they to decide that our votes don't count?

Why shouldn't we have a voice?

We didn't choose to move up the election dates.

I know a lot of people from Michigan who are so upset that our votes didn't count that there is no way they're going to vote for a democrat in the general election.
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Post#54 » by PimpORL » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:47 pm

Both hurt Obama, so no, they shouldn't count.
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Post#55 » by UCFJayBird » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:39 pm

bstein14 wrote:As someone from Michigan I think its really stupid for our votes, and Florida's votes not to count.

Who are they to decide that our votes don't count?

Why shouldn't we have a voice?

We didn't choose to move up the election dates.

I know a lot of people from Michigan who are so upset that our votes didn't count that there is no way they're going to vote for a democrat in the general election.


The people you put in charge of those decisions through elections DID move them up though.

And tell those people that they shouldn't hold the candidates responsible. We'll see how they feel in November, i'm guessing most will have calmed down and will pick who they feel is best for President.
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Post#56 » by bstein14 » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:51 pm

But why should we be forced to vote at a later date?

Michigan's economy is perhaps the worst in the nation, its housing market has been terrible with house values dropping 30+% in the past few years.

Why shouldn't have we been able to have a say in who the next president is? Many years candidates were decided before Michigan even got a chance to have a say.

It seems pretty **** up to say that Michigan can't be a part in the process because that's what high ranking party members decide.

What makes other states more important that they get so much attention from national candidates in their early primaries?
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Post#57 » by ivDT » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:39 pm

UCFJayBird wrote:The people you put in charge of those decisions through elections DID move them up though.


the decision to move the primary was largely backed by republicans with a very dim--either that or very well compensated--democrat taking the lead.

no one i voted for supported moving the primary and i'd imagine that most democratic voters in this state can say the same.

And tell those people that they shouldn't hold the candidates responsible. We'll see how they feel in November, i'm guessing most will have calmed down and will pick who they feel is best for President.


"those people" would be the party big-wigs like howard dean.

last i checked, rank-n-file democrats like me don't get to vote on who becomes the party chairman.

in the end, these were all decisions made by people who do not represent us.
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Post#58 » by UCFJayBird » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:29 pm

bstein14 wrote:But why should we be forced to vote at a later date?

Michigan's economy is perhaps the worst in the nation, its housing market has been terrible with house values dropping 30+% in the past few years.

Why shouldn't have we been able to have a say in who the next president is? Many years candidates were decided before Michigan even got a chance to have a say.

It seems pretty **** up to say that Michigan can't be a part in the process because that's what high ranking party members decide.

What makes other states more important that they get so much attention from national candidates in their early primaries?


They never said you couldn't move your vote up earlier in the process, but they said which states could vote before February 4th. they never said your state couldn't be part of Super Tuesday.

And the housing economy in Florida is 2nd worst in the nation next to California I believe (not sure on this, just what i heard i think). We had our delegates stripped as well, but I'm not going to complain that ours should count after the fact that we voted under the pretense they wouldn't count and were told it wouldn't and still moved up our primary.

Michigan chose not to be important themselves, by moving their primary up, just like Florida. Maybe they thought they'd be able to count anyway and they'd be more important that way, but if they wanted to be critical they should've just moved it to Super Tuesday, or maybe March 4th.

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