Danny says it's Doc's defense

[DorfonCeltics]

I'm not sure if anyone caught this interview on WEEI yesterday but it was really good. Ordway asked him about the defense and who should get the credit. Danny said over and over that these are Doc's defensive schemes and he's most responsible for the changes this year. He definitley recognized KG's influence and Tommy T's ability to teach the nuances of the defense that Doc implements. Contrary to popular belief, Tibbs is not the guy responsible for the massive overhaul on the defensive end. I was pretty surprised at this as I'm sure many of you are as well.

There was also a funny part where Danny says that "every fan thinks he can be an NBA coach". I knew a few such fans on this board.

http://audio.weei.com/m/18827930/danny_ ... ,keyword=4

[Prophet_C]

I call BS.

[Tenbomber]

And we all should believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus too!

[sully00]

Not only is it Doc's defense it is the same defense that we have run since he came here. They have been able to simplify it because they have more guys who can defend one on one limiting the amount of doubling down and therefore rotations they have to go through.

To be honest you can make an argument that this is still basically Harter's defense minus the fronting of the post.

[cisco]

I smell BS too. Danny just wants Doc to look good. Everyone knows Docs teams have never played any defense until Thibadeau showed up.

[JJHondo17]

I smell BS too. Danny just wants Doc to look good. Everyone knows Docs teams have never played any defense until Thibadeau showed up.

What everyone knows is that if you don't have the players willing to commit to it and understand its' importance, then it's not going to happen. Big difference between who was here last year and who's here now.

[UGA Hayes]

I smell BS too. Danny just wants Doc to look good. Everyone knows Docs teams have never played any defense until Thibadeau showed up.

Wow you sound like an expert on defense. If you could please explain to us the technical differences b/t the defense of Doc and the defense of Thibadeau.

[floyd]

I smell BS too. Danny just wants Doc to look good. Everyone knows Docs teams have never played any defense until Thibadeau showed up.

And he's coached some outstanding defensive players. I mean, Pat Garrity really was KG light.
And his guys never quit on him - especially that Tracy fellow. No I in team with that guy.

[Friar Dan]

I guess I'm one of those fans that thinks he can coach, but...

My take on NBA defense is this - there are two levels to defense: on-ball defense and off-ball defense (the latter of which includes off-the-ball rotations). Now, I love Al Jefferson, but he was clueless when it came to rotation to cover a spot for a teammate (still is, actually). Perk is better than Al, but a little slow at it. When your bigs are B- and F defenders, your perimeter guys have no chance against pick & rolls or penetration.

KG, on the other hand, is an A+ defender, and an A++ at off-the-ball rotations at that. Now your bigs are A+ and B- defenders - all of a sudden, your wings are more able to effectively defend the perimeter and the team as a whole are better at defending the pick & roll (notice how the bigs are showing up top on that play - they couldn't do that last year).

Doc is who he is - he didn't figure out defense this year. Thibodeau is a great assistant coach, but is more of an individual technique guy, from what I read. The difference from last year to this year is KG first and foremost, coupled with James Posey and Rondo's maturation. It's the players, not the coaches.

[LarryLegend]

Doc has been trying to implement Riley's style of defense the entire time he has been here, and finally he has an assistant who can coach the defense full time with the same principles.

As an FYI, Doc played for Riley in NY. Thibodeau worked for Jeff Van Gundy who is obviously a Riley disciple.

[DorfonCeltics]

-= original quote snipped =-



What everyone knows is that if you don't have the players willing to commit to it and understand its' importance, then it's not going to happen. Big difference between who was here last year and who's here now.

Great point. If some of these guys actually listened to the interview they would realize that's what Danny is saying.

Responses like:

I call BS.

Don't really add anything to the conversation. If you think it's BS then tell my why? It's amazing what Danny has done for this team and there are still people who don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth. I would say he's a pretty straight shooter but that's just my opinion.

[BrokenLeftyJumper]

See, it's like this with many posters on this board.

C's lead league in defense = All Tom Thibodeau.

C's play bad defense last two games = Doc's fault.

Why? Some people look for any reason to hate on Doc Rivers.

I'm still waiting for people to start calling out Thibodeau after two back to back crappy defensive performances. I think I'll be waiting a long time. People want to give Thibodeau all the credit for the improved defense, but then won't give him any of the flack when the D gets gashed. And it's because many people use Thibodeau to avoid having to grudingly utter anything close to a kind word about Doc Rivers.

It's almost as if Tom Thibodeau is the Michael Bishop for Doc haters.

[Relative Autonomy]

To be honest you can make an argument that this is still basically Harter's defense minus the fronting of the post.

i'd like to hear that argument, if you don't mind

[Fencer reregistered]

I've long been of the opinions:

1. Doc drew up schemes that were good at least in theory.
2. Doc failed to teach them effectively to the players he had.
3. Teaching aside -- but that's a biggie -- Doc was effective at motivating the players he had.

#2 was huge, of course. And I'm still not willing to give him a pass and only blame the players.

On the other hand, not all coaches are equally good with all kinds of teams. E.g., Phil Jackson picks his spots verrry carefully.

[sully00]

-= original quote snipped =-



i'd like to hear that argument, if you don't mind

Watch a tape of OB's Celts and compare it to what we do know. Like I said this team doesn't front the post but but they pack in the paint and tend to rotate off of men as opposed to chasing all over the floor, a man to man with zone principles. With the rule changes there isn't a ton of difference in what teams do defensively Harter just was the first guy to get credit for developing a system after the rule changes that succesfully took advantage of the changes.

The emphasis is to force the opponent to work down the shot clock and force a contested jump shot.

Interestingly GS showed how to take it apart pretty well last night. The biggest weakness to that style of defense, as with most, is pg penetration. As Baron and Monta got loose we had to bring help and that means you are going to leave one of the bigs open and we gave up a lot of easy and open looks to Biedriens and Harrington.

The two biggest flaws to me with this system whether it was under OB or Doc was that we get killed on the offensive glass and we end getting beat on the reverse of the ball. Most of this is caused by personel we were undersized during OB's time here so we fronted the post and got killed on the glass for it. Until this season we rotated help on the ball constantly mostly because of a lack of able one on one defenders and that left us open on the weakside on the reverse for either the open 3 or the easy post up.

Two other things we have lacked for several years is a great charge guy that slows down penetration as opposed to bringing help. That first year OB had Erick Strickland now we have Posey to do the same thing. When you have a guy who is great at it becomes contagious. Add to that shotblockers on the backline. OB had Battie now Doc has KG as well as an improving Perkins.

To me when this defense is at its best there is a physicality to it as well as far as keeping yourself between the man and the rim. We have a team full of guys like that right now and I don't think we have had 5 during Doc's first 3 seasons.

[sully00]

I've long been of the opinions:

1. Doc drew up schemes that were good at least in theory.
2. Doc failed to teach them effectively to the players he had.
3. Teaching aside -- but that's a biggie -- Doc was effective at motivating the players he had.

#2 was huge, of course. And I'm still not willing to give him a pass and only blame the players.

On the other hand, not all coaches are equally good with all kinds of teams. E.g., Phil Jackson picks his spots verrry carefully.

This is the NBA not elementary school. Way too many of Doc's players had no idea what they were doing from an individulal standpoint it was impossible to teach them team concepts. When OB was here he would refuse to play guys who didn't know what they were doing inside and out because one guy screwing up caused the team defense to break down. Once he no longer could do this based on the personnel he had he quit. Doc never had that luxury from the jump.

Look at the guys who left here. Is one of them considered an even adequate defender? Even players that were thought to have been decent individual and or team defenders have gone on to be just terrible once they moved on.

Doc had two top 10 defensive teams in ORL when he had underated tough defenders when they were allowed to leave or be traded his team slipped.

The truth is in front of you do with what you will, like call the Mormon GM a liar.

[GonzoLays]

THE GREAT GONZOLAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[celtsloyalty]

I would say the biggest reason our defense has improved is because of the replacement of Jefferson with Kg, Scalabrines minutes turned into James Poseys minutes, and Wally turned into Ray Allen. Also the emergence of Rondo. And of course being a contender makes everyone want to work harder on defense. Also of course the addition of Thibodeau is a factor but I think the true test of the coaching staff will come during the playoffs.

[sully00]

That is a great point. I think Doc has been vindicated in the sense that he isn't the awful coach and the "problem" so to speak he has been labeled. The reality is he still hasn't won anything, he at least now has a team that should.

[MaxwellSmart]

yeah,but who's responsible for the defense in the last 2 games?