Jose Calderon - #4 PG in league?

[yehyeh82]

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The 11 game stretch is being used because a lot of people couldn't believe Calderon could keep up those amazing percentages putting up big scoring numbers. To watch a guy score 17 PPG on 70% shooting for an 11 game stretch is nothing short of amazing. He's pretty much automatic from anywhere on the floor and is also a great finisher for a PG.

Try watching a guy score 25 ppg on 70% shooting over the same stretch! Nah, I'm just messing with you, but watching Monta play that way I can feel your pride. It's just amazing when a guy becomes pretty much unstoppable on the offensive. You have to see it to believe it.

I would probably rate Calderon behind Baron, Nash, Paul, Deron, and Telfair Well, maybe not Telfair, but maybe Chauncey because of the D....

And while Calderon may be clutch, you can't say he is equal with Baron on the clutch-o-meter..There are only a handful of players in the league who you can give the ball too with 10 sec's left in the game, clear a side and wait for him to take his man one-on-one for the win, and Baron is one of them. I just had to throw that in to show my homerness...

[T-Spot]

[quote="yehyeh82"][/quote]

Yeah, just ask the Celtics and Lakers about how clutch Baron is (to be fair, the Celtics also know how clutch Calderon can be after he dropped the game winning three-point play). Calderon is more of a guy that can extend a lead with a big shot down the stretch, where Baron is the guy that is going to take the game winning shot. Baron does win in clutchness.

All things considered, I'd rate them pretty equal in my book.

Calderon > Baron in Shooting

Baron > Calderon in Leadership

Baron > Caldeorn in clutch

Calderon > Baron in playmaking

Baron > Calderon in scoring

Calderon > Baron in efficiency

I'm not sure about defense as I've never really known Baron or GSW for defense.

They are also products of the system they play in I suppose. Baron likes the fast break, up and down game, while Calderon plays the pick and roll, half court game.

[gswhoops]

Nash
Deron
Paul
Kidd
Davis

Are all better than Calderon

[yehyeh82]

Defense goes to Baron hands down. He has some trouble keeping quicker pg's in front of him and he gambles on steals a lot (that's why he gets 2.5 spg), but his strength also allows him to guard larger pg's, 2's and 3's. When it comes down to the end of the game he always picks up his intensity and can be a rather ferocious defender.

[T-Spot]

Defense goes to Baron hands down. He has some trouble keeping quicker pg's in front of him and he gambles on steals a lot (that's why he gets 2.5 spg), but his strength also allows him to guard larger pg's, 2's and 3's. When it comes down to the end of the game he always picks up his intensity and can be a rather ferocious defender.

Ah, well then, Baron seems to have the upper edge.

Calderon has: Shooting, passing, spider senses, and efficiency; in short all the things that makes a pure point guard and a second in command.

Baron has: Clutchness, scoring, leadership, and defense; in short all the things that makes for a born leader/franchise player.

Still, I'll take a number 6 point guard behind Paul, Nash, Deron, Baron and Billups.

[yehyeh82]

Damn right you will!

[Hendrix]

Nash
Deron
Paul
Kidd
Davis

Are all better than Calderon

Kidd has not been better then Calderon this year, and it's not even close really.

Don't think Caleron is 4th. probably 6-8 range right now.

[TAI8]

No.

[The_Believer]

Baron's actually a very tough defender and definitely underrated in that aspect. He has shut down Kobe and Wade, and even Melo, AI, and Bron in the clutch. Baron >>>> Calderon in defense.

As a matter of fact, Baron is better than Caldy in pretty much everything but shooting. Baron is currently leading a mediocre supporting cast to the playoffs IN THE WEST with one of the toughest schedules, while Calderon's assist numbers are barely higher despite having a better supporting cast.

[TAI8]

Let's not gt carried away. Calderon is a good player, but he shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Diddy.

[Hendrix]

No.

So you tink Kidd's been better then Calderon this year?

[T-Spot]

Baron's actually a very tough defender and definitely underrated in that aspect. He has shut down Kobe and Wade, and even Melo, AI, and Bron in the clutch. Baron >>>> Calderon in defense.

As a matter of fact, Baron is better than Caldy in pretty much everything but shooting. Baron is currently leading a mediocre supporting cast to the playoffs IN THE WEST with one of the toughest schedules, while Calderon's assist numbers are barely higher despite having a better supporting cast.

Nice. I'd be hard pressed to make up as much stuff in a post as you just did.

1) K, he's better at D.

2) Monta Ellis (Monta freakin' Ellis), Biedrins, Captain Jack, Al Harrington, are pretty mediocre... I mean, even the guys that they don't use in Brandan, Peitrus, and Patty' O (not really, but I just wanted to type Patty' O), would be star players on the Raptor bench.

3) The Raptors have had the toughet sked in the east (and the league if I am not mistaken). (Faced the Suns, Mavs, Spurs, Detriot, Houston (all of them twice) and Boston four times. And I'm missing a whole bunch.) So much for doing your research.

4) I don't know what you think a miniscule improvement in assists is (when you look at Caldy's starter numbers, because it would be plain stupid to compare Caldy to someone who has started the whole season when he has not.) because in my book 10 assists is much better than 8.

5) If Baron absolutely pwns Calderon at D and leadership (which is really an intangible, I'm talking stats here), Caldy pwnzorzs Baron at efficiency (1. in ast/TO being an example) and shooting (54% to 41%? Were are talking about the best shooting point guard (or guard in general) in the league, you know that right?) He is also a better play maker, and that should even out Baron's scoring edge. (15 and 10, to 22 and 8, doesn't look too lopsided to me)

6) I am not arguing that Caldy is better than Baron. I'm arguing that Baron is not the shiny god man and Caldy is not the boot scraper.

7) Again, looking at the their starter numbers, I think I'll be just fine mentioning Caldy in the same breath as Diddy.

[The_Believer]

Baron's actually a very tough defender and definitely underrated in that aspect. He has shut down Kobe and Wade, and even Melo, AI, and Bron in the clutch. Baron >>>> Calderon in defense.

As a matter of fact, Baron is better than Caldy in pretty much everything but shooting. Baron is currently leading a mediocre supporting cast to the playoffs IN THE WEST with one of the toughest schedules, while Calderon's assist numbers are barely higher despite having a better supporting cast.

Nice. I'd be hard pressed to make up as much stuff in a post as you just did.

1) K, he's better at D.

2) Monta Ellis (Monta freakin' Ellis), Biedrins, Captain Jack, Al Harrington, are pretty mediocre... I mean, even the guys that they don't use in Brandan, Peitrus, and Patty' O (not really, but I just wanted to type Patty' O), would be star players on the Raptor bench.

3) The Raptors have had the toughet sked in the east (and the league if I am not mistaken). (Faced the Suns, Mavs, Spurs, Detriot, Houston (all of them twice) and Boston four times. And I'm missing a whole bunch.) So much for doing your research.

4) I don't know what you think a miniscule improvement in assists is (when you look at Caldy's starter numbers, because it would be plain stupid to compare Caldy to someone who has started the whole season when he has not.) because in my book 10 assists is much better than 8.

5) If Baron absolutely pwns Calderon at D and leadership (which is really an intangible, I'm talking stats here), Caldy pwnzorzs Baron at efficiency (1. in ast/TO being an example) and shooting (54% to 41%? Were are talking about the best shooting point guard (or guard in general) in the league, you know that right?) He is also a better play maker, and that should even out Baron's scoring edge. (15 and 10, to 22 and 8, doesn't look too lopsided to me)

6) I am not arguing that Caldy is better than Baron. I'm arguing that Baron is not the shiny god man and Caldy is not the boot scraper.

7) Again, looking at the their starter numbers, I think I'll be just fine mentioning Caldy in the same breath as Diddy.

1) Calderon has Bosh, one of the best bigmen in the leauge, whereas the Warriors don't have any post prescence that approaches the 20-10 guy Bosh is, which easily nullifies the backcourt advantage that Baron has.
Plus, Calderon has Kapono and Anothony Parker, 2 guys shooting >45% from 3PT.
2) It's nice that Calderon has high efficiency and AST numbers, but he's only been officially starting since Ford's injury. We're comparing a solid starter to a top 10 MVP candidate here. And IMO 22-5-8-2 while having a better record in the West is much more impressive.
3) The Warriors have played the Suns, Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Spurs, Hornets, Mavs, and Nuggets twice each, and the Rockets and Jazz 3x each. They currently have a winning record against top 8 West teams, if I'm not mistaken.

[saham]

Calderon is not a top 5 point guard in this league. Stop overrating him, this is coming from a Raptors fan. Hopefully we can sign him for 50 million over 6 years

[T-Spot]

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1) Calderon has Bosh, one of the best bigmen in the leauge, whereas the Warriors don't have any post prescence that approaches the 20-10 guy Bosh is, which easily nullifies the backcourt advantage that Baron has.
Plus, Calderon has Kapono and Anothony Parker, 2 guys shooting >45% from 3PT.

Calderon does have Bosh, but G-State plays in a system that does not rely on a post-presence and amplyfies guard play.

Take Monta and Bosh out of the picture and G-State have a far superior cast. Oh yeah, Kapono has made a grand total of 4 treys in the last 7 games (Kapono has attemped all of what? 90 treys this season?). And Parker is another guy that attempts about 4-5 a game. Their long range shooting percentage is nice, but the amounts the take are miniscule compared to how much Captain Jack and Diddy jack up.

2) It's nice that Calderon has high efficiency and AST numbers, but he's only been officially starting since Ford's injury. We're comparing a solid starter to a top 10 MVP candidate here. And IMO 22-5-8-2 while having a better record in the West is much more impressive.

Well when Ford is healthy he makes a case to be a top 10 point guard so you can't fault Calderon for starting out behind Ford. Look at what he has consistantly done as a starter. You can't bring what the team does into this discussion of two players as G-State has the better team (I'm suprised you think Toronto has the better team) Looking at raw individual stats; IMO 15-3.5-10-1 while shooting 54%, 47%, and 92% with a league leading ast/to ratio is as impressive as 22-5-8-2 on 41%, (what ever he shoots on triples and ft's, which is probably a lower % anyway) with superior D and leadership.

3) The Warriors have played the Suns, Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Spurs, Hornets, Mavs, and Nuggets twice each, and the Rockets and Jazz 3x each. They currently have a winning record against top 8 West teams, if I'm not mistaken.

The Raps and G-State both have had tough skeds. Again, what the team does should not take over for what each individual does. If that's the case, Rondo is the best point guard in the league.

[TAI8]

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So you tink Kidd's been better then Calderon this year?

Yes. Jason Kidd is by far the better player.

[Kabookalu]

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Yes. Jason Kidd is by far the better player.

I have no problem people thinking Kidd is the better player, but to think he's "by far better" is pretty idiotic. Calderon is having a great season so far, his all star considerations aren't unwarranted.

[yehyeh82]

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First of all, Bosh >>>> Monta, so to compare the two supporting casts while taking those two out is bad logic.

Secondly, he's not saying the supporting cast is better, he is saying Toronto has much better shooters, and its true. Golden State's players are more one on one players than catch and shoot. This will not help a point guards assist numbers, especially when the coach's only plays are iso's. No assists to be had there.

Third, Baron is clearly better all-around than Calderon making this a dumb argument. He is top 10, but he is not at Baron/Nash/Deron/Paul level quite yet.

[T-Spot]

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First of all, Bosh >>>> Monta, so to compare the two supporting casts while taking those two out is bad logic.

Secondly, he's not saying the supporting cast is better, he is saying Toronto has much better shooters, and its true. Golden State's players are more one on one players than catch and shoot. This will not help a point guards assist numbers, especially when the coach's only plays are iso's. No assists to be had there.

[I could use Toronto's slower pace, and team oriented offense as an excuse for Calderons lesser scoring totals, but I don't. As I said, they are both creations of the systems they are in. Baron's system allows him to get more points, while Calderon's system allows for more assists.]

Third, Baron is clearly better all-around than Calderon making this a dumb argument. He is top 10, but he is not at Baron/Nash/Deron/Paul level quite yet.

[Baron is clearly better than Calderon. Is he better all-around? I don't think so. We will have to agree to disagree.]

[ponder276]

Raptors fan here. Calderon is very good, but there's no way he's #4. His defense sucks, and he can only drive when someone sets a screen for him (though he is very good at using screens). Also, he doesn't really "create" for his teammates that much, he just makes the smart perimeter pass to the most open shooter.
In my opinion:

1. Paul
2. Nash
3. Iverson
4. Deron
5. Baron
6. Chauncey
7. Kidd
8. Arenas
9. Parker
Then probably Calderon.