Shaq lies: "Amaree is best big in the NBA"

[NEM]

yeah...if guys named dwight howard, kevin garnett, tim duncan, carlos boozer, and chris bosh didnt exist didn't exist

[MagiChamps]

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howard's game is simply overpowering defenders. Garnett shoots threes, and can score anywhere on the floor. dwight cant. he has limited offensive moves and a questionable left hand.

Garnett is 0-8 from downtown this year.

Duncan is probably the most fundamental big man i have ever seen. He can bank in a shot from anywhere. Duncan is going to go down as the best PF ever most likely.

No. He's not even the best PF today much less the best of all time. They might tell you that on TV but that doesn't make it true.

IMO dwight is more comparable to shaq than KG or duncan, because i highly doubt his offensive game will ever be at their level.

Shaq had a better offensive game in his prime than KG or Duncan.

comparing amare and dwight is stupid. amare is soft and does not rebound, dwight isnt soft and kills the boards. Dwight isnt a good defender, Amare is God awful. amare is the most overrated player in the league.

That's just not true. Dwight is a GREAT defender when motivated. He's best with help defense when players try to drive the lane but he's not bad one on one either. The problems come when he has to guard PF's like Bosh that he doesn't match up well with. Amare has been guarding centers most of his career and he's definitely not built like a center so I don't think it's fair to call him a bad defender until we see what he can do against a PF.

[oakfanintheeast]

i stopped reading when you said shaq had a better offensive game in his prime than KG or duncan. being strong and muscling people doesnt make you good, it makes you strong.

[king_of_kingz]

Ever since Marion left, Amare has grabbed 11 boards per game scoring over 28 PPG. He may not be the best defender in the world, like Dwight, however, he has an offensive skill set that makes Dwight look like a beginner. Amare use to be a dunker, he learned to work on other facets like free throw shooting. Shooting jump shots, 47% versus Yao 38% Duncan 39%. He can block shots to the best of big men. Now he's back in his natural position. Hopefully he'll be there for good. Remember, Amare went from rookie of the year averaging 12 PPG to 20 PPG his second season, all before Nash. YOu ever heard of Natural progression? AMare FT has been increasing, rebounding is around 9+. Scoring percentage the same. HE turned Nash from a 7 APG to 11 APG. +4 in that department. Remember, Amare performance in his rookie season, in the post season, against the Spurs is much better than Dwight first postseason appearance, in his third season. One thing for sure, AMare doesn't disappoint the way Marion has.

[N4U|Redux]

I understand what you're saying but I don't see why not. If a player is more dominant throughout the game and does more to help his team up to that point, I don't think it makes him not "the best" just because you don't go to him at the end.

Well, our difference of opinion here indicates our difference of opinion in Dwight vs KG/TD. I see the above as a fundamental reason which would preclude him from being in their category.

One time? If we can't talk about Dwight right now based on his future potential then you can't say he is the best because of his distant past. Bosh and Amare weren't around back then anyway so that's not really that impressive. I'd include Dwight in that but he's not a PF.

One time in as...it's no longer universally seen as he's the best at his position because he's wearing down a bit. It certainly wasn't in his "distant" past though. Hell, I still say he's the best. I believe in an impact outside of statistics, Duncan is king of this type of impact.

No. He's not even the best PF today much less the best of all time. They might tell you that on TV but that doesn't make it true.

The best PF in history is either Duncan or Malone. Duncan has had a more prolific effect on the Spurs than vice versa and it doesn't look like the Spurs will ever stop winning without the man there. I wish he would go somewhere else to actually 'prove' if he's as great as he is, or if it's Popovich because they're really the only common denominators there.

That's just not true. Dwight is a GREAT defender when motivated. He's best with help defense when players try to drive the lane but he's not bad one on one either. The problems come when he has to guard PF's like Bosh that he doesn't match up well with. Amare has been guarding centers most of his career and he's definitely not built like a center so I don't think it's fair to call him a bad defender until we see what he can do against a PF.

Dwight is a mediocre 1-on-1 defender. He's great off the weakside, but he has his deficiencies on defense which are often overlooked. On Amare, he's a bad defender for almost equal reasons, but he gives less effort. And the fact that he matches up against centers, or did...so what? Wouldn't that make his job easier? Marion was always on the best opposing post player despite Marion only being 6'7" or so - that tells you something about Amare.

Ever since Marion left, Amare has grabbed 11 boards per game scoring over 28 PPG. He may not be the best defender in the world, like Dwight, however, he has an offensive skill set that makes Dwight look like a beginner. Amare use to be a dunker, he learned to work on other facets like free throw shooting. Shooting jump shots, 47% versus Yao 38% Duncan 39%.

Someone is an Amare homer...

This part I agree with to an extent, Amare has gotten much prettier than he used to be, but it's difficult for me to call him an offensive marvel either because of his system and his passing buddy. Swap Dwight with Amare and I guarantee you the Suns dominate even more, and don't bother trading away Marion because they had no 'enforcer' something Amare should be, but he's soft.

[Last Guardian]

i stopped reading when you said shaq had a better offensive game in his prime than KG or duncan. being strong and muscling people doesnt make you good, it makes you strong.

No sir.

Offense = scoring points. It doesn't matter how you do it. It can be awkward and not that pretty but that doesn't make that person bad offensively, especially in Dwights case, who is getting 22ppg. Thats like saying Reggie Miller was a not a good shooter because he had bad form.....please.

Bottom line is Shaq in his prime scored more and certainly more dominant than KG or Duncan. He was a better offensive player, thats it. Just because he didn't shoot 3's or step outside the paint, it means nothing. He put the ball in the basket, thats offense. I don't know why Shaq has to be disrespected like that constantly. He, and Dwight to a lesser extent, use what they have to put the ball in the basket. If thats strength then why is that less impressive than finesse.

[Last Guardian]

Ever since Marion left, Amare has grabbed 11 boards per game scoring over 28 PPG. He may not be the best defender in the world, like Dwight, however, he has an offensive skill set that makes Dwight look like a beginner. Amare use to be a dunker, he learned to work on other facets like free throw shooting. Shooting jump shots, 47% versus Yao 38% Duncan 39%. He can block shots to the best of big men. Now he's back in his natural position. Hopefully he'll be there for good. Remember, Amare went from rookie of the year averaging 12 PPG to 20 PPG his second season, all before Nash. YOu ever heard of Natural progression? AMare FT has been increasing, rebounding is around 9+. Scoring percentage the same. HE turned Nash from a 7 APG to 11 APG. +4 in that department. Remember, Amare performance in his rookie season, in the post season, against the Spurs is much better than Dwight first postseason appearance, in his third season. One thing for sure, AMare doesn't disappoint the way Marion has.

Ever since no one left, Dwight has been averaging 15rpg, a lot better than Amare. Dwights rookie season he is actually a better rebounder than Amare now. He may not be the best defender in the world, though a lot better than Amare, who resorts to flopping and purposely being late just to try and block a shot. Amare is perhaps among the weakest defenders of all big men. Head to head this season Dwight went for 35/16 and 30/23, showing you how poor a defender and boxing out Amare is. Dwight has 6 20/20 games this season, probably more than Amare in his career. Although Dwight isn't a good foul shooter, he goes to the line more than anyone, getting the other team in foul trouble. Dwight has also improved his shotblocking this season.

[Bay_Areas_Finest]

Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan, and Kevin Garnett are all CLEARLY better.

[MagicStarwipe]

I want to slap everyone in this thread that talked **** about Dwight. I'm not saying be a homer like some, but goddamn.

[oakfanintheeast]

[quote="Solid Snake"][/quote]




dude, dwight is as offensively limited as it comes. hes just so strong. shaq was the same way. Dwight has 1 offensive move. KG and TD have tons more. their offensive skill sets are laughable compared to dwight. better skill set= better offensive player. Dwight isn't on their planet.

[N4U|Redux]

I want to slap everyone in this thread that talked **** about Dwight. I'm not saying be a homer like some, but goddamn.

Depends on what you call ****.

Most of what has been said in criticism is true and he likely knows himself.

This doesn't mean we were talking **** about him though.

Dwight rules.

[bucsmagicfan]

Apparently Amare doesnt flop in practice?

[MagiChamps]

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dude, dwight is as offensively limited as it comes. hes just so strong. shaq was the same way. Dwight has 1 offensive move. KG and TD have tons more. their offensive skill sets are laughable compared to dwight. better skill set= better offensive player. Dwight isn't on their planet.

Not true but I don't think your minds gonna change.

[jazz__stoner]

Amare isn't even a quarter of Dwight Howards future.

Shaq is a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) homer and is easy to say about his teamates.

[MagiChamps]

Dwight is a mediocre 1-on-1 defender. He's great off the weakside, but he has his deficiencies on defense which are often overlooked. On Amare, he's a bad defender for almost equal reasons, but he gives less effort. And the fact that he matches up against centers, or did...so what? Wouldn't that make his job easier? Marion was always on the best opposing post player despite Marion only being 6'7" or so - that tells you something about Amare.

I'm not going to answer everything you wrote because most of it was just a matter of opinion but no, a natural PF does not have an easier time guarding a center than a power forward. As a general rule, it is hard for smaller players to guard bigger players because they get pushed around. That's why Rashard is having such a hard time guarding power forwards this year. It's not because he's not tall enough or quick enough, there's just not a lot you can do against a bigger guy who is posting up on you. And yeah Marion was always on the best opposing player but not if the best opposing player was a center- they gave that job to Amare because he was the "big" guy.[/b]

[N4U|Redux]

Not true but I don't think your minds gonna change.

I agree that it's not true, to an extent.

Example:

In evaluating Shaq vs Hakeem. Shaq is probably pretty close (I'd deem Hakeem better overall) to Hakeem and vice versa; however, their careers were almost polar opposites -- at least offensively.

In the end, does it matter that Hakeem accomplished much of his scoring off of finesse and some of the best post moves ever seen out of a big man? Does it matter that Shaq got his points off of brute force and outmuscling his competition? Probably not.

The leap being made here though from one such as Shaq vs. Hakeem being near equals offensively despite dissimilar styles and Dwight vs. Duncan being near equals offensively despite dissimilar styles is completely overblown. Dwight is not anywhere as refined as a guy like Duncan (or Hakeem) and he's nowhere near dominant as Shaq was in his prime. Put frankly, he's not on either level -- though, he probably has a better chance at catching Shaq's type of game at this point, even Shaq has a bigger repertoire of offensive moves than Dwight does and has exhibited considerably more skill in other areas (i.e. passing).

Contend about Dwight's muscle all you want, I won't disagree with him being worse than Duncan if Dwight manhandles people, I'm not judging him because he's rugged offensively, I'm judging him because he's just not effective enough in any dimension to be considered better than Duncan/KG or to guys like Shaq/Hakeem which KG/Duncan are now comparable to.

EDIT: The idea of not mattering how you score your points (as mentioned in Hakeem vs. Shaq) only applies to an extent. It doesn't matter if you're effective. However, I don't think anyone in the right frame of mind would go to Howard to score a bucket in a tense situation over Duncan or KG -- because their offensive ability's yield better results than Dwight does right now. Shaq and Hakeem's effectiveness were near equal, thus their styles didn't matter as much -- Dwight is not as effective as KG or Duncan, if he can manage to become that effective (whether by sheer physical domination, a great post offense, or a combination), he will the best big in history; book it.

[N4U|Redux]

I'm not going to answer everything you wrote because most of it was just a matter of opinion but no, a natural PF does not have an easier time guarding a center than a power forward. As a general rule, it is hard for smaller players to guard bigger players because they get pushed around. That's why Rashard is having such a hard time guarding power forwards this year. It's not because he's not tall enough or quick enough, there's just not a lot you can do against a bigger guy who is posting up on you. And yeah Marion was always on the best opposing player but not if the best opposing player was a center- they gave that job to Amare because he was the "big" guy.

In theory you're right. In theory.

Thing is, the size differential is negated when you look at the quality of the centers.

So, was Amare at a disadvantage guarding centers physically? Sure. Do the centers of the league possess near the capabilities of the PF's of the league? Hell no! He had easier matchups before, nuff said. Marion was on the best post player because he was their best defender and Amare is a joke defending on the low block. If a team had two PFs in at the same time, you could bet that Marion was on the better one.

[MagiChamps]

In theory you're right. In theory.

Thing is, the size differential is negated when you look at the quality of the centers.

So, was Amare at a disadvantage guarding centers physically? Sure. Do the centers of the league possess near the capabilities of the PF's of the league? Hell no! He had easier matchups before, nuff said. Marion was on the best post player because he was their best defender and Amare is a joke defending on the low block. If a team had two PFs in at the same time, you could bet that Marion was on the better one.

We'll watch and see how it works out. Phoenix just held Boston to 77 points and Amare held KG to his usual 19 points so I think he's off to a pretty good defensive start at his new position.

[N4U|Redux]

We'll watch and see how it works out. Phoenix just held Boston to 77 points and Amare held KG to his usual 19 points so I think he's off to a pretty good defensive start at his new position.

Thanks for the fantastic exception to the rule.

I'll enjoy you forgetting this conversation ever happened in a couple of months.

[MagiChamps]

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Thanks for the fantastic exception to the rule.

I'll enjoy you forgetting this conversation ever happened in a couple of months.

You're welcome. I'm not planning on forgetting but if I do feel free to remind me.