Dwight Howard vs Hakeem Olajuwon (athletic prime)

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Post#121 » by tsherkin » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:22 am

TooNice00 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



a decent amount haven't really kept tract the exact amount.


ps. report someone has posted that players are more athletic today than ever in the other david robinson and dwight howard thread. go give him a lecture.


lol, I'll investigate.

Well, you're obviously not interested in further debate on the topic, so I'll leave you alone but I think you're dramatically undervaluing the difference in their agility-related traits and overvaluing Dwight's leaping ability and strength.
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Post#122 » by TooNice00 » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:25 am

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



lol, I'll investigate.

Well, you're obviously not interested in further debate on the topic, so I'll leave you alone but I think you're dramatically undervaluing the difference in their agility-related traits and overvaluing Dwight's leaping ability and strength.


i see your argument and i guess i'll let my pride go and agree with you. your right that the difference between their agility traits is greater than their difference in the leaping and strength departments. really is there a better athlete than hakeem? you could argue he is better than shaq athletically using the agility argument too.
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Post#123 » by tsherkin » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:27 am

TooNice00 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



i see your argument and i guess i'll let my pride go and agree with you. your right that the difference between their agility traits is greater than their difference in the leaping and strength departments.


Nah, if you don't agree, you don't agree; acquiescing just to make me feel better is stupid. If you feel you have a legitimate point, cling to it. I feel differently and without giving you a video breakdown of the efficacy of the two players based on their respective athletic traits, I will not convince you, which means my arguments here are not sufficient to prove my point.

So you have every reason to cling to your belief. My last comment was more insolent than I intended, sorry.
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Post#124 » by TooNice00 » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:32 am

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Nah, if you don't agree, you don't agree; acquiescing just to make me feel better is stupid. If you feel you have a legitimate point, cling to it. I feel differently and without giving you a video breakdown of the efficacy of the two players based on their respective athletic traits, I will not convince you, which means my arguments here are not sufficient to prove my point.

So you have every reason to cling to your belief. My last comment was more insolent than I intended, sorry.


i agree. i was being stubborn about the agility aspect. its obvious i was ignoring it and focusing too much on their strength and leaping abilities. not trying to make you happy b/c def haven't tried to make anyone else happy in this thread. they are both amazing athletes.
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Post#125 » by Harry Palmer » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:35 am

*sob* I LOVE BOTH YOU GUYS! *sniff*
War does not determine who is right, only who is left.

-attributed to Bertrand Russell
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Post#126 » by tsherkin » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:42 am

Harry Palmer wrote:*sob* I LOVE BOTH YOU GUYS! *sniff*


...

I hate you, Harry.

:p

:D
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Post#127 » by kooldude » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:57 am

what's with all the arguing; it's painfully obvious that Bynum got them both beat!!
Warspite wrote:I still would take Mitch (Richmond) over just about any SG playing today. His peak is better than 2011 Kobe and with 90s rules hes better than Wade.


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Post#128 » by TrueLAfan » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:45 am

Referring to Nash's comment--it's dead on...but he's referring to the period after Hakeem's peak; the dead/slow era of the late 90s and early 2000s. He entered the league in 1996-7, when the league was getting close to the bottoming out point around the strike. Like I said--sorry if the post was long--we are returning to the style of play of the early 90s. We are not there yet. You can show this in multiple ways. It's quantifiable. You can see it in pace. Pace in 1993 and 1994--that would be around Hakeem's peak--was 96.8 and 95.1. It was 92.9 in 1995. After that, it spiraled downward, dropping as low as 88.9 in the strike year (and 90.1 in 2004). Since 2004, it has gradually risen again. Last season's pace was 91.9. Other than the one year anomaly of 2000 (the post strike year), it's the fastest pace since 1995. This season we're at 92.3...almost at the level of 1995. That would be the period of Hakeem's peak. What Nash is saying is we're returning to the athleticism and fluidity of the game before he entered the league--the early to mid-90s (and, if we're lucky, the late 80s).

You can see it in points per game. As the game slowed and became more halfcourt oriented, scoring dropped. It was around 91-95 point per game for most of the years between 1998 and 2004. We're on an upswing now. Last year, scoring was at 98.7 ppg. This is a by product of the open movement and athleticism Nash refers to. The last time scoring was higher was when--yup--Hakeem was at his peak. From 1993 to 1996, scoring was higher than now; 105.4 ppg in 1993.

You can see it in assists per game and percentage of baskets where assist are awarded. Assists per game were around 25 per game in the mid 1990s. They dropped to 21 apg in the slow period of the late 90s and early 2000s. they have started to go up again, and are approaching the 61.5/62% figure of baskets where assists were recorded in...yup. 1994 and 1995.

Actually, you can see it in player weight as well. When the game was slower (1997-2005), players were heavier. When the game was truly fast in the 80s, average player weight was around 215 pounds. It went to 224-225 and over in the dead period of the late 90s and early 00s. Now it's dropping again...it's back to 221. NBA players are the lightest that they've been since...well, I won't say it again, but you should get the point by now. There are lots of quantifiable facts to support what Nash points out...and it basically indicates we're going to back to a style and athleticism similar to that of 12-15 years years ago

That's why the era argument is being brought up and discussed (in those 500+ word responses)...because it's completely relevant to how we judge relative play and athleticism between time periods. It is not a tangent at all.

What I'm wondering--and, obviously, Harry Palmer and tsherkn are wondering the same thing--is that if you saw any decent numbers of games back then how you could have missed these changes. That's not a snide or rude question; I/we are honestly confused. If you didn't watch the games then...which means you didn't really watch Hakeem...that's fine. You need to say "I didn't really see Hakeem play." If you had, you'd recognize that he was a superlative athlete in a very athletic period; a period whose style (which relates to athleticism) we are returning to now. And Harry Palmer is right...Hakeem's athletic peak was earlier than his performance peak. He became a smarter player in the early and mid 90s. Earlier, he was relying more on his athletic gifts. And they were stupendous.
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Post#129 » by TooNice00 » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:16 am

you know i did some more watching of hakeem. i agree on the agility even though i think his post moves influences people perceptions. but i am not so sure he rivals dwight howards leaping ability or strength. i just can't see it. i don't see hakeem ever getting up as high as dwight in any footage. when it comes to strength howard looks and plays stronger but maybe its because howard has a power game and hakeem a finesse game. and hakeem is quicker but i really think dwight would be close in a straight foot race down the court. i just don't see how people choose hakeem and believe it without a doubt.
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Post#130 » by tsherkin » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:28 am

TooNice00 wrote:you know i did some more watching of hakeem. i agree on the agility even though i think his post moves influences people perceptions.


This is certainly a legitimate comment, though I might point out that a lot of the moves Hakeem made were based off of his quickness, that he has publicly acknowledged that he built his game around his quickness and agility rather than his power because he wanted to be different. His face-up game is entirely based off of footspeed, balance and coordination.

Was, anyway. Cursed tenses.
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Post#131 » by TooNice00 » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:55 am

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



This is certainly a legitimate comment, though I might point out that a lot of the moves Hakeem made were based off of his quickness, that he has publicly acknowledged that he built his game around his quickness and agility rather than his power because he wanted to be different. His face-up game is entirely based off of footspeed, balance and coordination.

Was, anyway. Cursed tenses.


yeah agility is essentially the ability to start, stop, and move the body quickly in different directions. so i guess that is basically what his post moves consist of. but basketball sense and awarenes is also needed to execute it on the court. but in terms of leaping ability i can't find anything to suggest he is comparable to howard. howards head is literally level with the rim at times and then add his arm length and you get the picture. hakeem's leaping ability was seen in blocking shots which is more about perfect timing than anything but never see him soaring like howard. very good hops none the less. i mean i just think it is closer the more i watch hakeem play. hakeem has footspeed and better acceleration but i think howard would give him a run for his money sprinting down the court.
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Post#132 » by tsherkin » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:23 am

Like I said, Howard's probably got about 4 inches of vert on prime Hakeem and he is indeed longer.

And it's entirely possible that Dwight has comparable end-to-end speed but that's still a linear activity and end-to-end speed is only so valuable, especially when he's still ending up the trailer most times, arriving in the secondary just like Hakeem.

The functional difference here is that Hakeem's athletic gifts were much more readily applicable to the diversity of offensive moves that he had, allowing him to do things Dwight can't.

This was most noticeable defensively, since Hakeem had the footspeed to make a nuisance of himself to perimeter players out on the wing... Howard can't even guard Bosh and other quick PFs, nevermind swing forwards and off-guards the way Dream did at times (obviously, we're mostly talking about short shows around picks and switches and stuff, not on the balance of a game but still).

And of course it applied to his ability to double- and triple-spin around defenses, to the fluidity of his turnaround fallaway, that sort of thing.

This athletic ability, these gifts of his, they were the foundation of a mostly unstoppable offensive repertoire that he developed and which peaked in the mid-90s in ways Howard will never see.

Howard is a lot more like Shaq than Olajuwon athletically.

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