Shelden Williams can learn from Artest

[sackings916]

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Really? I see two guys that are more of a bruising type. Big wide bodies, post games are more about strength and banging than anything else. They also produce in the same areas at about the same rate, solid to very good rebounders per minute. Solid post defenders too.

How are they disimilar? Give me some expamples.

Defensively Magloire's a stiff who plays no defense, Shelden is more athletic and more of a presence defensively and on the boards. Its not really fair to compare them producing at the same rate because Shelden hasn't even really gotten consistent PT yet, im just talking style of play here. Offensively Magloire has a decent post game, where Shelden's back to the basket offense is nonexistent. Shelden has a decent mid range jumper, Magloire doesn't.

[SacKingZZZ]

Ehh I think he's a better scorer than Magloire. He definitely is better at getting to the FT line and stuff. More post moves and stuff. I dunno, I don't really feel like that's a fair comparison. What about a poor man Elton Brand?

I'd lean towards the realistic comparisons. A poor man's Elton Brand, maybe, but Brand has that finesse that Shelden doesn't. Shelden looks to be more of a bruiser to me. Has since college, now he isn't a stiff and by comparing him to a guy like Jamaal Magloire doesn't relegate him to being one.

[SacKingZZZ]

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Defensively Magloire's a stiff who plays no defense, Shelden is more athletic and more of a presence defensively and on the boards. Its not really fair to compare them producing at the same rate because Shelden hasn't even really gotten consistent PT yet, im just talking style of play here. Offensively Magloire has a decent post game, where Shelden's back to the basket offense is nonexistent. Shelden has a decent mid range jumper, Magloire doesn't.

Once again, read my original post. And you are saying Magloire wasn't a presence on the boards!? Check out his stats for a second. If there was one thing that kept him in the NBA it was his board work.

http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/406/jamaal_magloire/

Comparing any player to another isn't an exact science, and I was having a hard time finding a comparable player physically and skill wise. I noticed I wasn't the only one either. I think physically and "mold" wise they are pretty dang similar, or about as similar as I think you are going to get. With obvious and potential differences.

[sackings916]

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Once again, read my original post. And you are saying Magloire wasn't a presence on the boards!? Check out his stats for a second. If there was one thing that kept him in the NBA it was his board work.

http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/406/jamaal_magloire/

Comparing any player to another isn't an exact science, and I was having a hard time finding a comparable player physically and skill wise. I noticed I wasn't the only one either. I think physically and "mold" wise they are pretty dang similar, or about as similar as I think you are going to get. With obvious and potential differences.

If Magloire was such a presence on the boards he'd at the VERY LEAST be able to stay on a roster with his size and post game. Instead teams are calling up Dale Davis and Chris Webber.

[BMiller52]

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I'd lean towards the realistic comparisons. A poor man's Elton Brand, maybe, but Brand has that finesse that Shelden doesn't. Shelden looks to be more of a bruiser to me. Has since college, now he isn't a stiff and by comparing him to a guy like Jamaal Magloire doesn't relegate him to being one.

Shelden's per36 minute numbers since coming here are like 27/10/3.5 blocks. Obviously he's not going to put that up if he gets 30 MPG but I wouldn't be surprised to see like 15/8/1.5 blocks which is much better than anything Magloire has ever done as far as I'm concerned.

You said he's a bruiser. I know he's not Malone, but Karl was the master of the garbage shot where he'd just kinda back the dude down, throw it in, and it would go in. Or he'd wheel into the post. The similar thing I saw Shelden do that Malone did(I was watching an old Malone game on 1 of the Jordan DVDs) is Malone got a putback/tip in real close to the basket because he's a quick jumper(although definitely not the most athletic guy out there or a leaper at all really). I've seen Shelden do that twice. So I think he can be more of a scorer than Magloire even if he's not a finesse guy. Especially if Ron takes him under his wing like he said he was(and toward the end of tonight's game even though we were getting blown out there was a timeout and I saw Ron go up behind Shelden in the huddle and start talking to him) then I think he can improve offensively a lot.

I'm also impressed that in his limited minutes(5-9 per game) he's gotten a block in 3 of his 4 games.

[SacKingZZZ]

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If Magloire was such a presence on the boards he'd at the VERY LEAST be able to stay on a roster with his size and post game. Instead teams are calling up Dale Davis and Chris Webber.

I think his athleticism and work ethic play a big part in that, oh and overvaluing his financial worth of course. The stats don't lie, if you give him the minutes he'll get you ten boards a game. Or at least he used to. Towards the end of his stint in Portland he seemed to be coming around again but he was asking for 10 million a year, no team wanted to pay him that much and thus no sign and trade. Hey, there are similar stories out there. Bonzi Wells anyone! How about Sprewell!

He's free now, but the lack of ever getting that elusive "contract" has seemed to have a negative impact on his effort. Sometimes players should really fire their agents when they aren't making any sense, and vice versa.

[SacKingZZZ]

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Shelden's per36 minute numbers since coming here are like 27/10/3.5 blocks. Obviously he's not going to put that up if he gets 30 MPG but I wouldn't be surprised to see like 15/8/1.5 blocks which is much better than anything Magloire has ever done as far as I'm concerned.

You said he's a bruiser. I know he's not Malone, but Karl was the master of the garbage shot where he'd just kinda back the dude down, throw it in, and it would go in. Or he'd wheel into the post. The similar thing I saw Shelden do that Malone did(I was watching an old Malone game on 1 of the Jordan DVDs) is Malone got a putback/tip in real close to the basket because he's a quick jumper(although definitely not the most athletic guy out there or a leaper at all really). I've seen Shelden do that twice. So I think he can be more of a scorer than Magloire even if he's not a finesse guy. Especially if Ron takes him under his wing like he said he was(and toward the end of tonight's game even though we were getting blown out there was a timeout and I saw Ron go up behind Shelden in the huddle and start talking to him) then I think he can improve offensively a lot.

I'm also impressed that in his limited minutes(5-9 per game) he's gotten a block in 3 of his 4 games.

There is room for improvement there for sure. And it's possible that he could learn a few moves in the post. The only one I have ever seen him use is that step through half hook, which just isn't nearly as effective at the NBA level as it was in college. The nice rotation on his jumper is what really gets me excited. That is the one thing that could take him from being a starter type only in the right situation to being a consistent NBA starter for a team mostly needing defense/rebounding out of the 4 spot. He has also done well with moving the ball around and finding players open on the perimeter. That was a knock on him before coming out but he has clearly improved his court vision from what I can tell.

I am also very impressed with his shotblocking as of now. In Atlanta he looked to be about 1-1.5 per game kind of player still may be about that at the end of the day, Antonio Davis type of stuff, but I have been impressed with his help D and his willingness to challenge shots overall. You can definately see the possibilities for him on the defensive side of the ball. Which was the main reason he was drafted so high.

I also noticed that Ron was very involved and seemed quite willing to help his young teammates while they were in. No matter what anyone says about him, he is a very good mentor from what I have seen.

[BMiller52]

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There is room for improvement there for sure. And it's possible that he could learn a few moves in the post. The only one I have ever seen him use is that step through half hook, which just isn't nearly as effective at the NBA level as it was in college. The nice rotation on his jumper is what really gets me excited. That is the one thing that could take him from being a starter type only in the right situation to being a consistent NBA starter for a team mostly needing defense/rebounding out of the 4 spot. He has also done well with moving the ball around and finding players open on the perimeter. That was a knock on him before coming out but he has clearly improved his court vision from what I can tell.

I am also very impressed with his shotblocking as of now. In Atlanta he looked to be about 1-1.5 per game kind of player still may be about that at the end of the day, Antonio Davis type of stuff, but I have been impressed with his help D and his willingness to challenge shots overall. You can definately see the possibilities for him on the defensive side of the ball. Which was the main reason he was drafted so high.

I also noticed that Ron was very involved and seemed quite willing to help his young teammates while they were in. No matter what anyone says about him, he is a very good mentor from what I have seen.

Yeah, his shotblocking really impresses me also. Tonight he stuffed some Orlando dude on the fastbreak. It was impressive that he was 1. quick/fast enough to get back on D in that situation and 2. he was able to stuff the guy with the guy coming at him while not fouling the guy. He should get more minutes than Mikki every single night. Mikki gets 2 points and 4 boards in 26 minutes, with no blocks. Shelden got 4 points, 1 board, and 1 block in like 8. I know if he got more minutes he could get like 1-2 BPG atleast and more rebounds than Mikki.

I'm also excited about his J. He had 2 that should've gone in tonight that popped out. He also seems to be good at getting to the FT line just by banging around and creating contact, so if he can get some more confidence and a bit more consistent at the line he could score some points there. I think he could use that step through half hook you talked about more though. I saw Malone use it. He needs to add a real hook shot though, and maybe a turnaround J. If he could do that he could easily score around 17 IMO.

Agreed about Ron, which is one of the reasons I say keep him.

Overall I just want to see more of Shelden play. I want to see if he has the potential to be the answer at PF for us. There is no sense letting him ride the bench like a 5$ prostitute rides a trucker while we watched Mikki play horrible out there, doing things like shooting fadeaway Js from 18 feet against Dwight Howard. Or how about the time today Mikki tried to POST DWIGHT UP, which is outrageous and funny. Not surprisingly Mikki got that thrown back. But we know Mikki, Kenny, etc. AREN'T the answer. We haven't had 1 since Webber screwed up his knee and then was traded. Shelden is still young, played in a good college program(even though as a UNC fan I really dislike Duke, Shelden made me a fan), has some athleticism and length, and has shown some flashes in his limited minutes. We might as well see if he can play and give him some experience. If he's not the answer or doesn't show potential to be, we move on and draft a guy like Arthur. If he shows the potential to be the answer, we need to give him the rest of this season to improve and get used to actually PLAYING in the NBA, because practice can only make a guy improve so much. If he shows potential to be the answer then we can move on to our last real need, which is finding a top PG.

Oh and if anyone argues we need to play Mikki because he's a vet and gives us a better shot to win then Shelden does, well get real. He sucks and he doesn't give us a better shot to win. He just gets minutes because he's a vet and Reggie thinks his "AND 1!!!!!!!" shout every time he misses a lay up is funny.

[SacKingZZZ]

Well Theus is in "win now" mentality. So he will play his vets as much as he can because there is a comfort level, don't forget he is trying to win games because that's his job. My argument is that at some point his boss needs to let him in on the fact that we aren't making the playoffs and we need to start developing our young players. He has gotten better at integrating them into the game plan but as soon as the littlest amount of turbulance arises here comes the hook and back to the bench with them all.

The most necessary part of development is being able to play through those rough stretches.

[BMiller52]

Well Theus is in "win now" mentality. So he will play his vets as much as he can because there is a comfort level, don't forget he is trying to win games because that's his job. My argument is that at some point his boss needs to let him in on the fact that we aren't making the playoffs and we need to start developing our young players. He has gotten better at integrating them into the game plan but as soon as the littlest amount of turbulance arises here comes the hook and back to the bench with them all.

The most necessary part of development is being able to play through those rough stretches.

The thing that pisses me off is Mikki makes more rookie mistakes than Justin did or Shelden does or Spencer does. He just gets minutes because he's a vet. Their mistakes are rookie mistakes(yeah I know Shelden's a sophomore and Justin was too) and will go away if they actually got minutes. Mikki just sucks. But Reggie lets him play through it just because he's a vet. It pisses me off. He doesn't give you nearly as much production as Spencer and Shelden do. He makes just as many defensive mistakes(left Lewis open for multiple 3s...) and doesn't block shots. He doesn't rebound. He just sucks.