The best division in the NBA is also the slowest.

Malinhion · Post #1 » by **Malinhion** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:42 pm

More evidence that the mythical transition to fast-paced basketball will change who wins and loses in the NBA. Bottom line is that teams who execute better on both ends of the floor win more, regardless of how fast it happens.

SouthWest Division (pace)
San Antonio (28th)
New Orleans (24th)
Dallas (25th)
Houston (20th)
Memphis (7th)

The top four teams here have win percentages of .650 or better. The only team that plays fast in this division is absolutely dismal. Memphis only has 14 wins so far.

DynastySS · Post #2 » by **DynastySS** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:45 pm

Interesting post.

Fast paced basketball is cute and all but it doesn't go very far in the playoffs.

*See Phoenix Suns*

Malinhion · Post #3 » by **Malinhion** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:46 pm

Well, the Suns' problem right now is that they have the 18th ranked defense. That won't fly in the Western Conference Finals, if they plan on making it there.

Ballings7 · Post #4 » by **Ballings7** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:53 pm

Good point, never really thought about that (about the division).

There shouldn't have to any more evidence for people all around, other than the ordinary. Defense and flexible half-court offense, is an absolute requirement to be a serious contender.

DynastySS · Post #5 » by **DynastySS** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:55 pm

Malinhion wrote:Well, the Suns' problem right now is that they have the 18th ranked defense. That won't fly in the Western Conference Finals, if they plan on making it there.

Based on the way they are playing lately, I don't even think they believe they are making it that far haha.

bjebaz · Post #6 » by **bjebaz** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:05 pm

The Suns are 5-3 in playoff series the last three years. How's Houston done?

DynastySS · Post #7 » by **DynastySS** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:09 pm

bjebaz wrote:The Suns are 5-3 in playoff series the last three years. How's Houston done?

About the same as Phoenix, zero championships.

I think you are right though. Twenty years from now people will look back on this era and say, "you know what, that Phoenix team was pretty good! They were 5-3 in playoff series over three years. Sure they never won the championship, but shoot, they won a series!"

Unimpressed.

How has Phoenix done with Shaq thus far? Pretty content with that trade?

bjebaz · Post #8 » by **bjebaz** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:15 pm

Name a team who has lost as vital a player as Joe Johnson or Amare for a series and went on to win the championship. I know it hasn't happened in recent history. And I don't even need to go into last year's playoff series.

Unless a team is utterly dominant, like some of the Bulls teams or a couple of the Lakers' three peat teams, it has to get breaks to win the championship. The Spurs lucked out last year by the nose, Donaghy, and suspensions. The Heat lucked out by facing the Mavs, probably the only team out of the West contenders that they could have beaten in the Finals. The Suns are cursed and haven't caught those breaks, yet.

By your logic, Houston should be able to still go on and win the championship without Yao, since the Suns should have in 05-06 without Amare. It's not like Yao or Amare have any effect on a team's postseason play. :roll:

Regarding the Shaq trade, go look at the Heat's record against the West's best in 05-06 and then come back and talk.

nycballer718 · Post #9 » by **nycballer718** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:18 pm

wow interesting find about pace , can u tell me where heat are ranked in that pace category ?

Malinhion · Post #10 » by **Malinhion** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:24 pm

Heat rank 14th.

Ming Kong! · Post #11 » by **Ming Kong!** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:39 pm

I feel pace the best defensive teams manage the clock, while weaker defensive teams with an offensive forte like to speed it up to simply out-offense their opponent.

Ballings7 · Post #12 » by **Ballings7** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:41 pm

Joe Johnson there for the whole Spurs series in 2005, would not of won that series or pushed it to 7 games. Maybe 6 games.

Miami would of beat Phoenix in 2006. Miami was bigger, better defensively, more versatile offensively, tougher, more experienced, better coached.

How would Phoenix of stopped Miami on a consistent basis? Shaq, Wade drawing attention and producing in the half-court would of dictated the tempo over the series. Then you have Wade in transition, with the Suns not being a discplined defensive team.

Udonis Haslem + James Posey, I'd say would of been able to defend Diaw well enough. Combined with Shaq and Zo on the interior (like Miami did in containing Dirk over the series).

Miami could also go small to run and score with Phoenix.

Phoenix wasn't big enough, weren't experienced enough, weren't deep enough, and weren't diverse enough offensively, to beat Miami's balanced and crafty squad. Missing Amare, likely Kurt Thomas, and a hurting Bell doesn't help matters, either.

DynastySS · Post #13 » by **DynastySS** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:04 pm

bjebaz wrote:Name a team who has lost as vital a player as Joe Johnson or Amare for a series and went on to win the championship. I know it hasn't happened in recent history. And I don't even need to go into last year's playoff series.

Unless a team is utterly dominant, like some of the Bulls teams or a couple of the Lakers' three peat teams, it has to get breaks to win the championship. The Spurs lucked out last year by the nose, Donaghy, and suspensions. The Heat lucked out by facing the Mavs, probably the only team out of the West contenders that they could have beaten in the Finals. The Suns are cursed and haven't caught those breaks, yet.

By your logic, Houston should be able to still go on and win the championship without Yao, since the Suns should have in 05-06 without Amare. It's not like Yao or Amare have any effect on a team's postseason play.

Regarding the Shaq trade, go look at the Heat's record against the West's best in 05-06 and then come back and talk.

1970 Knicks and Willis Reed comes to mind, but it may not qualify cause he did play some games that series.

I guess part of my problem with your post is its just excuses. I have a big problem with excuses. For instance, I will be the first to admit that Houston didn't deserve to win its recent playoff series, and by extension a championship. I don't buy the argument of, "oh but Juwan Howard was hurt and we had to play Ryan Bowen" or "if we could have got that last rebound in game 7 last year".

Its all crap. You win or you lose. You have to play with what you have, and there is no need to wonder what could have been.

By that extension, this talk of the Spurs and Heat is all whining. It was not lucky that the Spurs beat the Suns. The better team won, fair and square.

Lets just be honest both of our teams flat out aren't good enough. There is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone can be a winner.

CB4_Toronto_Raptors · Post #14 » by **CB4_Toronto_Raptors** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:08 pm

What's Toronto's pace at?

Ballings7 · Post #15 » by **Ballings7** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:13 pm

Solid post, DSS. Like I've said before on that stuff.

DynastySS · Post #16 » by **DynastySS** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:17 pm

Ballings7 wrote:Solid post, DSS. Like I've said before on that stuff.

Appreciate it.

I know where is coming from. I think it is considerably easier to blame injuries, refs, or bad luck then it is to come to the realization a team may not be up to snuff. I understand that, he is in no way alone with his thinking.

Ballings7 · Post #17 » by **Ballings7** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:26 pm

DynastySS wrote:Appreciate it.

I know where is coming from. I think it is considerably easier to blame injuries, refs, or bad luck then it is to come to the realization a team may not be up to snuff. I understand that, he is in no way alone with his thinking.

Oh yeah, I understand the frustration (and have acknowledged that in the past), but I don't agree with it being so sustained and strong. You have to get real eventually, and at least, have a more balanced position on it. The only thing I think is fine to stay around is key injuries.

Magz50 · Post #18 » by **Magz50** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:33 pm

Spurs fans have just as many "bad luck" things happen to them that we could use to depreciate some of the Lakers former championship wins, like Derek Anderson being injured in 2000 in the first round or Tim Duncan's injury in 2002. However we don't whine about it cause, that's just how the game goes. You gotta suck it up and win with what you have. We weren't good enough to win in those years or didn't play well enough to win so we lost. Simple as that.

bjebaz · Post #19 » by **bjebaz** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:59 pm

Y'all can talk like this when your franchise is not fundamentally cursed. You cannot have the 4th highest winning percentage in NBA history over 40 years and not win a championship without a TON of breaks going against you.

It's not like the Clippers with bad management. The Suns have been smart with trades and drafting (for the most part, compared to other franchises), but stuff has gone against them.

The last three years the Suns have gotten ousted, the breaks have not gone the Suns' way. That's a fact. It was out of the Suns' control that Joe Johnson broke his face before the Spurs series. Or that Amare, KT, and Bell got injured the one season the Suns had a pretty easy road to a championship. Or that Nash's nose exploded, or Donaghy reffed game 3.

Imagine if they had happened exactly the opposite. Ginobli gets injured for the first 3 games of 04-05 and Joe is healthy. Amare, KT, and Bell are all healthy while Dirk, Diop, and Stackhouse are injured. I'm not going to go into last year, the Suns just got screwed, plain and simple.

I'm not saying that the Spurs and Heat didn't win the championships outright. All I'm saying is, is that they didn't overcome the obstacles the Suns would have had to overcome the last three years to win the championship. There's too much parity in the league now, it just doesn't happen. So to criticize the team as "unable to win in the playoffs" when no other team would have won under their circumstances is stupid.

Post #20 » by **floppymoose** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:59 pm

It's not the pace that is winning the games for these teams, it's having dominant players. Houston and Spurs have dominant post up players. Mavs have an iso offense with the right kind of dominant layers to execute it.

When you have dominant players who excel even against a set defense, there is no reason to go to a high octane pace.

The pace here is just a symptom, not the cause.

Warriors and Suns have excellent records and have the highest pace in the league. I know for certain that the Warriors would win fewer games if they slowed the pace.

New Orleans is the biggest question mark to me. I was a bit surprised by their pace ranking.