Has Chris Paul surpassed Steve Nash yet?

[VintaGe36]

^That doesn't make sense though.....

So because Diaw can play 5 positions, hes a better OVERALL player than Duncan who can only two!?

[2poor]

The Williams vs. Paul thing again? Everyone agrees with you and has always agreed with you so why do you keep harping on the same issue over and over again as if the rest of the world were heretics and you have the one true knowledge?

Hollinger

[a-rod]

^That doesn't make sense though.....

So because Diaw can play 5 positions, hes a better OVERALL player than Duncan who can only two!?

i was talking about players who are on the same level.

^That doesn't make sense though.....

So because Diaw can play 5 positions, hes a better OVERALL player than Duncan who can only two!?

you are using wrong Comparison to make a point. here is the right Comparison, ron artest is better overall player than melo, but hes
not the better SF. do you get my point?

uh, based on what? if you're going to make a statement that defies pretty much every stat imaginable, at least state your case.

Williams is better shooter than paul, and better defender then nash, and hes better than both of them at posting up other PGs, and he also averaging the same amount of assist and points while playing half court game, while nash and paul are playing run and gun.

[2poor]

Williams is better shooter than paul, and better defender then nash, and hes better than both of them at posting up other PGs, and he also averaging the same amount of assist and points while playing half court game, while nash and paul are playing run and gun.

just...awful.

Deron is a marginally better shooter. Paul is a noticeably better distributor.

(that is what PGs are supposed to do, right?)

If you're prerogative is a PG who can post-up, so be it. The bottom-line is that it is an overrated intangible for a PG to have, and it isn't especially utilized. Go ask Jazz fans how often they run plays that rely on Deron posting his guy up....they don't. Occasionally Deron will get inside position on a break and they'll lob it to him under the basket, but not much else. They run pick-and-roll sets, not isos.

Run-and-gun? Hornets have the 25th slowest pace in the NBA, while being top-10 defensively (#7 to be exact). For reference, Utah has the 9th fastest pace while checking in at #12 defensively.

Almost any PG in the NBA is better than Nash on D.

I really hate to see this thread go the way of Deron v. CP3, but it is those kinds of uninformed, homer-infused responses that get Hornets/CP3 fans a bit up in arms.

edit: oh, and I don't know what stats you're looking at, but Deron doesn't average as many points, assists, steals, or rebounds as Paul.

[candy for lunch]

SCENARIO: Congratulations, you've just become owner of a new team which can pick any PG in the league to build around. Who do you pick?

I'm going with Paul.

[ITK9]

let the guy play a game in the playoffs before you put him ahea os 2 times mvp steve nash.

[Neon Black]

Nash has benefited from a system that capitalized on his strengths for a few years. Both Dwill and Chris Paul are better and will have better careers than Steve Nash.

[Copperhead]

According to a poll at ESPN.com, an awful lot of people seems to think he has...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/fp/flash ... llId=53270

[big123]

Right now Paul is better. I would take paul right now and not even think twice. No way Nash wins 1 MVP let alone 2 with the seasons Kobe and Lebron are having.

Nash is a product of a great system. He wasn't nearly as spectacular before Phoenix and even now with Phoenix in a little different system and half court sets, he's become a turnover machine and less effective.

[schaffy]

Nash may not have been great in Dallas, but he was still pretty good. And his first season in Phoenix he turned a 29 win team into a 62 win team, with basically the same roster. (The only other big change was the addition of Q. Richardson) He made those other players better around him. He deff wins the MVP even if Kobe or James had these type of seasons that year. 33 wins is a HUGE improvement. IT might be the system, but he made it work for others.

[big123]

Nash may not have been great in Dallas, but he was still pretty good. And his first season in Phoenix he turned a 29 win team into a 62 win team, with basically the same roster. (The only other big change was the addition of Q. Richardson) He made those other players better around him. He deff wins the MVP even if Kobe or James had these type of seasons that year. 33 wins is a HUGE improvement. IT might be the system, but he made it work for others.

Nash is very good, I'm not discounting it, but the system makes Nash makes everyone better. The Suns did a great job of implenting a system that catered to the whole team strengths.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't really like the term "surpass" because it implies something absolutely definitive. But is Paul having the better year than Nash? Yup.

[tsherkin]

I think that since this has all happened over 2/3ds of a season and doesn't include playoff performances that it is entirely too premature to make any kind of judgement call on Paul/Nash.

I think he'll almost assuredly pass Nash EVENTUALLY, but Nash has been a pretty outstanding regular season guy and hasn't lost his shooting touch in the playoffs, either.

From his third season on, he's never hit on less than 36.8% from downtown in the playoffs and has hit 40%+ in 4 of 7 seasons (hitting 37.5, 38.9 and 36.8 percent in consecutive seasons before 48.7% last year). He's also shot 52, 50.2 and 46.3% from the field as a Sun in the playoffs and has been an 89.9% FT shooter in the postseason while dropping 11.3 apg against 4.02 tpg (again, as a Sun).

So you've got to stop and think "Damn, Nash can ball in the postseason," you know?

Let's see Chris Paul do some of that before we start trying to really match one against the other.

big123 and anyone else making a "system" argument for Nash, you don't know what you're talking about.

The difference for Nash between Dallas and Phoenix has to do with roster construction; the Mavs ran a lot more isolation plays for Dirk and the other scoring weapons and had a lot of weakside attack that took the ball out of Nash's hands before the direct assist pass; in Phoenix, he's the dominant on-ball guy and the offense is built around HIM, rather than anyone else. In Dallas, it was built around Dirk. In Phoenix, everything begins and ends with Nash when he's on the floor, so his stats have increased accordingly. Some of this can be seen in his consistently higher usage rates but generally, it's clear that he's on the ball more often in the halfcourt and that he's looking for pass-shot scenarios a lot more regularly.

Dallas liked to run a lot of cross-cuts and almost motion-style stuff, you know? Flex plays, reverse-action plays and the like. So there was a lot of pass-pass-shot and that sort of thing going on, which depressed Nash's numbers and of course he didn't have quite the same free reign to take some of the threes and floaters that he takes as a Sun.

So while the issue is systemic, it's not that Nash is the PRODUCT of the system, it's that he finally has a team that's HIS rather than being the second fiddle to another player. And make no mistake; while Amare scores more than Nash, this is very clearly Nash's team.

That's the difference and that's why the Phoenix "system," which can only be called such in the loosest of senses (since the "system" is to run the floor and if you miss the break, then hit up the secondary break with a transition PnR and then rely on the same play or Nash dribble penetration in the halfcourt), does not reflect negatively on Nash.

Nash IS the system.

[schaffy]

Right now Paul is better. I would take paul right now and not even think twice. No way Nash wins 1 MVP let alone 2 with the seasons Kobe and Lebron are having.

Nash is a product of a great system. He wasn't nearly as spectacular before Phoenix and even now with Phoenix in a little different system and half court sets, he's become a turnover machine and less effective.

But you did. He improved a team by 33 wins. And you say he would not have won the MVP. This is exactly the kind of thing which proves an MVP.

[Doctor MJ]

Nice post t.

[Alex_De_Large]

this season yes, if next year it's the same he will pass nash officialy.

[tsherkin]

Nice post t.

Thanks.

[JordansBulls]

Imagine what Paul would do with the Suns roster.

[Doctor MJ]

Imagine what Paul would do with the Suns roster.

People are still saying this? The difference in supporting casts was never that clear cut and now I don't see how it's clear cut to anyone. If you had asked me before the trade who would fit better on the Suns, Shaq or Chandler, I'd have said Chandler without hesitation. Meanwhile Paul also has a former MVP candidate whose only 30 years old as a role player named Peja, and who is a much better than anyone on the Suns. And that doesn't even get into Paul's fellow all-star West. Saying you'd rather have Amare than West is fine, but both were all-star borderliners. The difference is not massive.

[tsherkin]

-= original quote snipped =-



People are still saying this? The difference in supporting casts was never that clear cut and now I don't see how it's clear cut to anyone. If you had asked me before the trade who would fit better on the Suns, Shaq or Chandler, I'd have said Chandler without hesitation. Meanwhile Paul also has a former MVP candidate whose only 30 years old as a role player named Peja, and who is a much better than anyone on the Suns. And that doesn't even get into Paul's fellow all-star West. Saying you'd rather have Amare than West is fine, but both were all-star borderliners. The difference is not massive.

Peja was never a legitimate MVP candidate, even when he accrued the votes. He's also a man without testicles, so we'll see what happens when the playoffs arrive. I fear for Paul on that account, personally, because Peja is so bad when it counts the most.

The difference between West and Amare IS massive, the radical difference in how one draws fouls versus the other is a very large and significant gulf between the two of them in favor of Amare.

Amare's slightly better on the (mainly defensive) glass, a LOT better at drawing fouls, a comparable shooter, similar WRT turnovers... and West is the better passer (though to be fair, Amare is almost never asked to pass, he's almost always expected to shoot when he touches the ball).

I think there's a rather clear and distinct divide between the two that puts Amare over West at this point. West is a fine player but he doesn't do a lot as well as Amare and only one thing better... and Amare's foul-drawing is a lot more significant.