Age of fans in the Antione question

[Kids Are Alright]

bringing walker back is akin to bringing Walter back after Phoenix, as RickyDrizzle pointed out, a fading 4 playing on the perimeter. At least Scals attempts and occasionally gets a rebound or block.

What's happened to Brian's 3's lately, they're way off?

[Taget]

I think bring Antoine back would be pointless. But you know I'm sure I'd miss a bench player or two on the 86 squad. And if you really put pressure on me I'd probably crack clam up... my mind would go blank and I'd babble about Barry Lyrd.

[theman]

Humor me

Just testing a theory that those who want Antoine back don't go back far enough with the team to have a more satisfying binky.

Not necessarily about your actual age, but the level of fanaticism you displayed the last time the Celtics were a contender.

This may bring some clarity to my universe and make it so that I don't have to avoid RealGM until Antoine's head joins the rest of his body in retirement.

Age of fans in the Antione question
Can name entire roster from 86 - bring Antione back
29% [ 12 ]
Can name entire roster from 86 - no Antione please
21% [ 9 ]
Not old enough to remember 86 - bring Antione back
9% [ 4 ]
Not old enough to remember 86 - no Antione please
39% [ 16 ]

Interesting. The outcome seems to be the opposite of what was expected. Why? I'll attempt to explain.

The kids are all about well the kids. They see a player a year or two removed from college and believe they have upside that can be developed over night. A player that is fully developed of on the down side of their career is not of interest. Add to that the younger fans have only been hearing Antoine bashing for the last few years.

The older voters realize that experience is important in the play offs. They believe getting a vet who knows his roll is valuable. The also remember an NBA whose talent pool was not watered down as it is today. They remember a Boston team that was deep and had backups who could start on other teams.

Now. I am talking in extremes here, but I think that is the basis of it.

[DorfonCeltics]

Theman, I actually take a little offense to your post. I'm young enough (26) to not remember every member of the 86 championship team but I surely recognize the importance of having veteran leadership in the playoffs. With that said however, Antoine is not the veteran leadership this team needs. When you have KG, Ray, Paul, and Posey, how much more veteran leadership do you need?

My take on the whole Antoine thing is that the people who want him back are those who feel in love with him in his prime. Don't get me wrong, I liked Antoine when he played for the C's, even his second coming but the problem is he is nowhere near that player now. He's not going to bring anything to the table that we don't already have. We need a back up vet pg and a backup pf/c who is 6'10" and can play defense. Antoine would like to think he is all three of those in one but that is not the reality of the situation. Plus this is a moot point anyway since Minny will NEVER buy him out. Not when he's a $9 mil expiring contract next year and a valuable trade asset. I really wish all this Antoine talk would just stop.

[Celts17Pride]

Walker sucks, but is a loud mouth who thinks he's good and would demand that the ball be in his hands
-Dizzy

This is the problem in a nutshell.

I have visions of a future playoff game in which Antoine has the ball on the outside and KG is screaming for the ball down low. Antoine takes a look and then completely ignores KG and hoists up a 30 footer that barely catches rim.

No thank you, been there done that.

The Celtics have no use for Antoine.

[GuyClinch]

Walker is what they call a "ball stopper" in that when the ball lands in his hands he will fiddle and diddle with it - usually eventually taking a shot but sometimes a nice pass.

What Doc Rivers and company want is a smooth machine like motion type of offense. They would like everyone to immediately - drive dish or shoot who has the ball and the people without the ball to immediately cut or screen as appropriate. When working right it should be like poetry in motion - almost a dance out there..

Walker does not fit this kind of offense - whereas Scalabrine does. Pierce and Allen sometimes engage in some ball stoppage - but not on the Walker level and their amazing talents offset this. Walker no longer has the amazing talent.. As I have said in other threads he is an amazingly BAD fit for this team.

We have a surplus of 6'8" guys. We have two 6'8" guy with excellent passing skills who are either better defenders and team players (scabs) or better rebounders (BBD). There is absolutely nothing that Walker would bring to our team.

The Walker issue is not age related. Lots of older fans never liked him. Truth is Walker was a good player and did help our team despite his volume shooting ways. The haters refuse to acknowledge that. But the Walker lovers refuse to acknowledge just how much he sucks now. How he is a ball stopper who could not fit in a team concept anymore..

Pete

[Fencer reregistered]

Think of Toine as a poor man's Chris Webber -- at this stage of Chris Webber's career.

[Bleeding Green]

Not old enough to know the entire '86 roster, but prime Antoine Walker might be one of the least useful players in NBA history. I can't think of a worse player who got that many minutes and shots. And now he's 7 years past his prime so he's considerably worse. He brings nothing to the table.

**** Antoine.

I bet if you had replaced Antoine with even a semi-useful player during his tenure in Boston they would have won on average 5 more games a season. Horrible, horrible player. Huge reason they sucked in the mid-to-late nineties and beyond. He's lucky Paul Pierce carried his fat ass for so long.

[GWVan]

-= original quote snipped =-



Interesting. The outcome seems to be the opposite of what was expected. Why? I'll attempt to explain.

The kids are all about well the kids. They see a player a year or two removed from college and believe they have upside that can be developed over night. A player that is fully developed of on the down side of their career is not of interest. Add to that the younger fans have only been hearing Antoine bashing for the last few years.

The older voters realize that experience is important in the play offs. They believe getting a vet who knows his roll is valuable. The also remember an NBA whose talent pool was not watered down as it is today. They remember a Boston team that was deep and had backups who could start on other teams.

Now. I am talking in extremes here, but I think that is the basis of it.

I had a suspicion it was newer and or more casual fans and was dead wrong.

I'll buy your explanation, but to me, and I was a big fan of Antione before he was traded, he's done. His value as a role player on a playoff team as a contributer is zilch. His value as a cheerleader could be taken into account, but doesn't hold up in balance to the potential chemistry problems created by his strong personality.

The only reasons I can find for signing him would be emotional.

Either way, it's over now with the signing of Brown, we will have to wait till this summer for 18 more "lets get Walker" threads

[GuyClinch]

I liked Walker to. In his hey-day he did have a positive value (on some teams).

1) Walker could handle the ball pretty well.

2) Walker could create his own shot fairly easily.

3) Walker would draw defensive attention (even double teams!)

4) Walker was a pretty good passer.

5) Walker was a decent defensive rebounder.

You put all this together and you have a guy that can free up some easy shots for your team - albiet at the cost of his own relative inefficent shot taking..

Walker's "do it all nature" meant that he could had an addititve value that also went beyond simple stats. As having a guy that can do everything you need a basketball player to do at any given time is valuable. Remember PP championed him once for the olympic team for this very reason his all-around game.

But that's all said and done. As I explained before he is done as an NBA player barring some amazing commitment to getting in shape and working on his game. All his bad habits have remained and even grown and the rest of his game has regressed. So now you have a volume shooting ball hog who doesn't do hardly an postive things for his team..

Pete

[irishnole007]

I'm a 'Toine fan and have been since his Kentucky days. Saying that, I don't think that he is a fit for this Celtics team, unless he is okay with playing only a few minutes a game and mostly being used as an offensive rebounder for the second unit. He can't be the "star" that he was when it was just him and Pierce, and I just get the feeling that whenever he'd be on the court he'd want to be the go-to guy.

[PPAW4Life]

I don't agree with Pete...Toine is not a ball stopper anymore. If Toine gets the ball now it is either a 3 point shot or he reverses the pass or drives.

Toine rarely dribbles with he ball for 20 seconds anymore and then puts up a shot from 30 feet away.

Toine rarely gets the ball on the box anymore, not when Big Al is there.

If Toine comes to Boston he would be just like Scal, take open shots or drive to the hoop and dish if defenders try to run Toine off the 3 point line. The only difference is with Toine there is more options of success rather than an airball from Scal or a lumbering drive that results in a turnover or ugly offensive set.

If Toine can pass the ball down to Shaq and feed Big Al, he will pass the ball to KG down in the post.

If Toine can take the time to mentor Gerald and Rashad McCants, he would not ignore Powe/BBD.

Despite the signing of PJ Brown, I think Danny feels comfortable with our PG situation and can and will probably sign Toine over Sam I Am.

[StephenASmith]

Think of Toine as a poor man's Chris Webber -- at this stage of Chris Webber's career.

More of a homeless man's Chris Webber right now.

[KyleCleric]

I may not have born yet, but yes ... I can name every member of the '86 team (born 2 days after the championship). In any case, yeah, I don't want the Celts to have anything to do with Toine.