Has been, will be.
If you want to call me crazy, then fine.
At least I'm not an idiot, who thinks that Phoenix wasn't going to match.
I'd rather be called crazy, than be a complete and utter idiot like that.
Steve Belkin was right....
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Harry10
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actually, suns where planing to match any offer, that is why they traded away Quentin Richardson (their starting SG at the time) for Kurt Thomas. that trade not only would move Joe to SG, but also free up cash for the Suns to resign Joe.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/24/sports/basketball/24knicks.html
people on this board really surpise me.... i thought this was common knowledge.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/24/sports/basketball/24knicks.html
Although the Suns advanced to the Western Conference finals, San Antonio exploited their weak defense and won the series in five games. Thomas would bring toughness to the Phoenix frontcourt and would allow Shawn Marion to return to his natural position, small forward.
Joe Johnson, who had an All-Star-caliber season at small forward, would return to shooting guard. Johnson is a free agent who could command more than $10 million a season, and the Suns have vowed to match any offer he receives. The Suns also plan to extend the contract of Amare Stoudemire, so they have ample incentive to unload the final five years and $37.6 million of Richardson's deal. Thomas is due $22 million over the next three seasons.
people on this board really surpise me.... i thought this was common knowledge.
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smabie
- Sophomore
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It was, Harry. Some people just feel that its best to harp on the past issues, looking for mistakes with their perfect 20/10 hindsight.
Nevermind the facts. Nevermind how just because some PG might have gotten drafted by the Hawks instead of elsewhere, the coach here wouldn't have treated him the same as the coach there, and so his development would have gone completely differently.
Ever read about Chaos Theory? Its quite interesting how it first developed. There was this guy, worked at Los Alamos as a computer programmer back in the late '50s, early '60s. Was working on a program to recreate - and ultimately predict - the weather. While doing some tests, he was re-entering data from a previous run, and got a completely different set of results; things started almost identical, but quickly turned out extremely different in a very short amount of time. So he went back and looked at his numbers. He discovered that the computer had temperatures in it to 6 places past the decimal point, but that the printout only showed 3 places, so that when he renetered the temperatures, he was actually off by .000127 (or something like that) of a degree Fahrenheit. That miniscule degree -- the difference of the sun being on you directly for a minute longer -- threw off the weather patterns just days afterward.
Point being, you can dream all you want about what might have been, but the reality of the situation probably wouldn't have been anything like you think. Players develop differently in different situations. Look at Boris Diaw -- with the Hawks, looked like crap, even during that year's summer league play. Put him in Phoenix, and he's can't miss. Take Williams and/or Paul, put them on the Hawks, and you might not have ROY; you might have Shelden Williams instead. Put Shelden Williams on a different team, and you might have a very good player. Put Salim Stoudamire on another team.... Who knows?
And, frankly, who cares. The guys we have now are the guys we have now, and no amount of wishing, dreaming, or threatening the GM is going to change any of that. If you want to root for the Real Hawks, then root for the Hawks. If you want to root for Your Fantasy Dreamland Alternate Universe Hawks, then find the Fantasy-Dreamland-Alternate-RealityGM, and post your love there. Hmm?
Nevermind the facts. Nevermind how just because some PG might have gotten drafted by the Hawks instead of elsewhere, the coach here wouldn't have treated him the same as the coach there, and so his development would have gone completely differently.
Ever read about Chaos Theory? Its quite interesting how it first developed. There was this guy, worked at Los Alamos as a computer programmer back in the late '50s, early '60s. Was working on a program to recreate - and ultimately predict - the weather. While doing some tests, he was re-entering data from a previous run, and got a completely different set of results; things started almost identical, but quickly turned out extremely different in a very short amount of time. So he went back and looked at his numbers. He discovered that the computer had temperatures in it to 6 places past the decimal point, but that the printout only showed 3 places, so that when he renetered the temperatures, he was actually off by .000127 (or something like that) of a degree Fahrenheit. That miniscule degree -- the difference of the sun being on you directly for a minute longer -- threw off the weather patterns just days afterward.
Point being, you can dream all you want about what might have been, but the reality of the situation probably wouldn't have been anything like you think. Players develop differently in different situations. Look at Boris Diaw -- with the Hawks, looked like crap, even during that year's summer league play. Put him in Phoenix, and he's can't miss. Take Williams and/or Paul, put them on the Hawks, and you might not have ROY; you might have Shelden Williams instead. Put Shelden Williams on a different team, and you might have a very good player. Put Salim Stoudamire on another team.... Who knows?
And, frankly, who cares. The guys we have now are the guys we have now, and no amount of wishing, dreaming, or threatening the GM is going to change any of that. If you want to root for the Real Hawks, then root for the Hawks. If you want to root for Your Fantasy Dreamland Alternate Universe Hawks, then find the Fantasy-Dreamland-Alternate-RealityGM, and post your love there. Hmm?
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D21
- Lead Assistant
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Harry10 wrote:actually, suns where planing to match any offer, that is why they traded away Quentin Richardson (their starting SG at the time) for Kurt Thomas. that trade not only would move Joe to SG, but also free up cash for the Suns to resign Joe.
...
Kurt Thomas was not what we call a expiring. He did not save anything during 3 years. So it was 2 years with 4 max players (Amare's contract starting the following year).
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Rip2137
- Analyst
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Which would give them about one year of being in the lux tax area, and like I said, they were going to shop Marion who they felt was too easy to shut down come playoff time.
And its not 4 max players. Nash is not a max salary player. Amare, Joe and Marion would have been the max guys. Its not so much they were going to just go way over the luxury tax. They were trying to keep what they felt were their strongest pieces to go for a championship. And Joe was one of their strongest pieces and with his range of skills allowed them to not have to sign various other pieces.
Since then they have given Diaw like 10 million a year and Marcus Banks around 5. There is JJ's contract right there, and JJ gave you exactly what those two give you in one player when he was in Phoenix, only with better point guarding than Banks and a actual jumpshot.
Its not about if Phoenix will spend the money, its about what they will spend it on, and they spent more than max money trying to replace Joe.
And its not 4 max players. Nash is not a max salary player. Amare, Joe and Marion would have been the max guys. Its not so much they were going to just go way over the luxury tax. They were trying to keep what they felt were their strongest pieces to go for a championship. And Joe was one of their strongest pieces and with his range of skills allowed them to not have to sign various other pieces.
Since then they have given Diaw like 10 million a year and Marcus Banks around 5. There is JJ's contract right there, and JJ gave you exactly what those two give you in one player when he was in Phoenix, only with better point guarding than Banks and a actual jumpshot.
Its not about if Phoenix will spend the money, its about what they will spend it on, and they spent more than max money trying to replace Joe.
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Rip2137
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Well, either he is lying now or he is a idiot. One of the two. In what situation do you ever call and beg someone to do something they already told you they weren't going to do?
Maybe he wants to justify to people why he left a championship contending team to come to the Hawks. If he says Phoenix was never going to match, he looks like less of a moron. Because then he could be on a championship caliber team making the same money he is now. Maybe he thinks that makes him look stupid so now he says that Phoenix never intended to match...despite him begging them not to match when the actual deal was on the table.
I am not so big on looking at what either side said what happened. I am looking at what each side did. Phoenix traded away their only other starting caliber two guard before the Hawks offer. JJ asked the team publically not to resign him. Those two things right there tell me that not only did the Suns plan on matching, they let him know they were going to match.
Maybe he wants to justify to people why he left a championship contending team to come to the Hawks. If he says Phoenix was never going to match, he looks like less of a moron. Because then he could be on a championship caliber team making the same money he is now. Maybe he thinks that makes him look stupid so now he says that Phoenix never intended to match...despite him begging them not to match when the actual deal was on the table.
I am not so big on looking at what either side said what happened. I am looking at what each side did. Phoenix traded away their only other starting caliber two guard before the Hawks offer. JJ asked the team publically not to resign him. Those two things right there tell me that not only did the Suns plan on matching, they let him know they were going to match.
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Rip2137
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No, seriously, point out what I am saying that doesn't make sense.
Are you really saying it makes more sense that Phoenix told Joe Johnson they weren't going to match, so he in turn called them and begged them not to match? How does that make any sense?
I understand disagreeing with what I am saying, but you do have to at least attempt to refute the fact that you guys are saying after going to the WCF, Phoenix said "You know what....lets get rid of all our 2 guards."
Are you really saying it makes more sense that Phoenix told Joe Johnson they weren't going to match, so he in turn called them and begged them not to match? How does that make any sense?
I understand disagreeing with what I am saying, but you do have to at least attempt to refute the fact that you guys are saying after going to the WCF, Phoenix said "You know what....lets get rid of all our 2 guards."
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JoshB914
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Rip the botom line is JJ had every reason to lie about it then to drive his value up. But there is NO reason for him to show up the FO now just for the hell of it. I think that pretty much settles the deal, if JJ is lying about this now it makes no sense whatsoever. Why would he want to humiliate his FO for the hell of it?
You make an interesting argument about the "value" of Marion and Amare vs. JJ. But the fact that he came out and said that they weren't going to match after the fact settles it for me.
You make an interesting argument about the "value" of Marion and Amare vs. JJ. But the fact that he came out and said that they weren't going to match after the fact settles it for me.
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Rip2137
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Yes, I know this post is 2 days late (pretty drama filled life since I left the Knick game) but how was he driving up his price? He already had a max offer on the table. He couldn't drive it up anymore than where it was. So making it publically known that he was asking the team not to match if he knew they weren't going to match makes no sense at all.
I guess his lying now makes as much sense as throwing the front office and the team under the bus after the best preseason since he has been here. He is a strange guy
I guess his lying now makes as much sense as throwing the front office and the team under the bus after the best preseason since he has been here. He is a strange guy