Grade our players

[d-train]

Also I would like to add that those minutes do not reflect the time that Travis spent in summer leagues during his first two seasons nor does it reflect the difference between HS practices/training and NBA practices/training.

Speaking of summer league experience, Webster has had the opportunity in summer league of having the entire team offense built around him. I remember watching summer league games that every play was a play for Webster to get the shot. This is an opportunity Outlaw never had. Outlaw has had to scratch and claw to earn his place in the offense.

[Wizenheimer]

-= original quote snipped =-



This is true, and I hadn't really looked at that, but that is a good point. But I would argue that Travis' two more years of NBA coaching in addition to the exposure to vets like I had previously mentioned would give Outlaw an edge there. I have no idea who Websters HS coach was, but I'm willing to bet that there was at least one basketball mind on Cheeks' staff that would be considered a better coach. I believe Grg worked a lot with Travis and Person's willingness to work with Travis on his shot was big in his short stint with Portland.

Also I would like to add that those minutes do not reflect the time that Travis spent in summer leagues during his first two seasons nor does it reflect the difference between HS practices/training and NBA practices/training.

While I do agree that Travis has shown more this year, Martell to me is well ahead of where Travis was in his third year. Travis is the better player now, but I'm not convinced that that won't change within the next season or two.

that's my point...those first two years of of outlaw totaled about 800 minutes and only 19 his first season. He only played in 8 games.

You're saying Martel right now is ahead where travis was after 2.7 seasons. You're also saying Travis's added experience advantage is a factor in evaluating them. Yet it seems you're ignoring that after 2.7 seasons Travis had played a total of 1620 minutes in 115 games. On the other hand, Martel has played 4501 minutes in 201 games. If Travis has an 'experience advantage' now, then Martell has one...a much more significant one...then Travis at an equivalent stage. So IMO, that particular comparison is skewed heavily and unfairly in favor of Martell.

The truth is, the two players careers have taken different tracks. Martell came in as a more developed rookie then Travis. Travis is farther ahead now, and while it's true he's been in the NBA 2 seasons longer, he actually had 25% less playing time in his first 2 years then martell did in his first. And only about 10% more at this point in time. Travis has played 5000 minutes now, by the end of this season, Martell should match that.

I was very happy with what Martell did last night against the Clips. If he can develop a set of isolation moves and dribble penetrations, he'll add a very effective dimension to his game. It would also mean that martell can get minutes at SG and that would not only give portland more versatility, it would also make it more feasible that the Blazers could keep all 3 of outlaw, webster and jones.

I don't have a problem with that.

[sabi]

I'm giving Jack a B+. I have a new found respect for him. His mistakes are more mental than anything and hopefully he'll learn to deal with that. But his scoring talent is noteworthy and his work ethic is one of the best on this team. I don't want to see him traded anymore.

[Tim Lehrbach]

I'm guessing most of the people who are voting that highly for Outlaw are the same folks who thought we were going to be at a major loss for letting Udoka walk last year.

Udoka has been a big loss. Having a full season of Przybilla and Udoka in the starting lineup, coupled with the defensive energy we've seen from Roy, would have given the Blazers a pretty good defense.

But your point that the likes of Udoka and Outlaw excite us only because we're an inexperienced (or just bad) team is valid. We can all wish for better players that will make Travis less important.

On Webster, I think what people forget is that he would have been a junior in college this year. Brandon Roy was a 12.2ppg/5rpg/2.2apg player at the same age in college, while Martell is averaging close to those sorts of numbers in the NBA once you correct for the minutes played. I think that makes Martell not a disappointment at all, but rather right on schedule to be a pretty darned good NBA player.

I'm sure you don't have the time to do this, but I'd like to see you produce a study that backs up your claim of Webster's "schedule". As Wiz pointed out, Webster has logged a good number of minutes already and produces very little. His only advantage over Outlaw is a slight edge in shooting efficiency. For all your talk about what a black hole Outlaw is, Travis is just as willing a passer as Martell and, to my mind, is a tad more capable in this regard.

I think Webster can still become a good NBA player, but I have seen no evidence (either in the numbers or in a subjective accounting of his abilities) to suggest he's any more likely than Outlaw to be useful to this team long-term.

[mojomarc]

-= original quote snipped =-



I'm sure you don't have the time to do this, but I'd like to see you produce a study that backs up your claim of Webster's "schedule". As Wiz pointed out, Webster has logged a good number of minutes already and produces very little. His only advantage over Outlaw is a slight edge in shooting efficiency. For all your talk about what a black hole Outlaw is, Travis is just as willing a passer as Martell and, to my mind, is a tad more capable in this regard.

On the issue of minutes, I am with Billy that it's not just on-court minutes that are important but coaching minutes, practice minutes, etc. Two extra years of NBA coaching for Outlaw is a big advantage for him.

As far as passing, I have to disagree--Martell doesn't get any more assists, but he is far less likely to force up a difficult shot with a defender in his face that Outlaw is. He gets the ball, evaluates the situation, then gives the ball back to the guy who gave it to him frequently. For Outlaw, there is virtually no situations where he doesn't think he can take his guy and thus doesn't end up taking the shot when it hits his hands. If it were not the case that Outlaw is far more of a black hole, then how do you explain him averaging more shots than anyone else on the team on a PER36 basis? Clearly, when he is on the floor more possessions end with him shooting the ball than any other player on the team, even more than Roy or Aldridge. Martell isn't even close.

[Norm2953]

Roy A
LA B+
Outlaw B
Blake B-
JP C+
Webster C+
JJ C
James Jones inc
Frye C
Sergio D+
Lafrenz D
McRoberts D

Obviously Oden and Miles are incomplete due to injuries and guys like
Von Wafer just got here and are incomplete. What we have is a roster
with one all star caliber player when Nate is on record as saying a team
needs two all star caliber players to make the playoffs.

[NbaDude]

*Edited to keep thread on topic. Don't bother posting if you cant' read the topic*

[Khazim]

As far as Outlaw and Martell are concerned, the reason that I grade Martell higher is because neither player is really good right now, but Martell's discrepancies tend to come from lack of confidence, while Travis' tend to come from lack of IQ. I personally think confidence is more easily remedied.

I think both have a solid future in the league, but I would be more hesitant to trade Martell as I think he has higher upside, and although both are streaky, when Martell is off it hurts us a lot less than when Travis is off. Just my two cents.

[d-train]

I don't have information about the confidence or intelligence of either player.

[Mr Odd]

I'm giving Jack a B+. I have a new found respect for him. His mistakes are more mental than anything and hopefully he'll learn to deal with that. But his scoring talent is noteworthy and his work ethic is one of the best on this team. I don't want to see him traded anymore.

Im not sure he has scoring talent.. .
I wonder how many games he has scored over 18 points??
Im to lazy to go find that out, lol.. .
I agree tho that he seems to be a great lockerroom guy.
I do hear he has good work ethic.. .
I just think with Rudy, Jack should be moved to upgrade.

[d-train]

Im not sure he has scoring talent.. .
I wonder how many games he has scored over 18 points??
Im to lazy to go find that out, lol.. .
I agree tho that he seems to be a great lockerroom guy.
I do hear he has good work ethic.. .
I just think with Rudy, Jack should be moved to upgrade.

I bet Nate or KP couldn't tell you who is better between Jack and Rudy, seems premature to be making that judgment.

[BigOrangeBalls]

Great thread. I'm late as usual.

Roy A
Aldridge A (Giving up on Aldridge is crazy talk)
Oden A

Outlaw B
Przybilla B
Jones B
Webster B

Jack C
Blake C
Frye C

Rodriguez D
LaFrentz D
Wafer D
McLazy D

Miles F

My Key:
A - Don't trade. Key piece for 5-10 years
B - If you trade them, you had better get something as good or better.
C - Average NBA players. Easy to replace.
D - Dead Weight. Keep them if they are cheap.
F - End the saga.

Regarding Webster, he is playing great defense, he hustles, and he isn't paid much. If he continues to be average, pay him average and keep him. (I rated him a B because I think he will be above average, but he is probably playing like a C). As long as they don't over pay Webster, he should stay.