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Manu as good as Kobe? UM NO

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Sedale Threatt
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Post#61 » by Sedale Threatt » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:20 am

blix wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
If you, iamworthy, numbas, doozyj, or anyone else, would take the time to read (I know, it makes your head hurt), ST didn't compare the two in terms of their overall talent and impact on the game.

Hooked on phonics - look it up. Or have someone look it up for you and explain it.

EDIT: This is the blind homerism that gives Laker fans, in general, a bad name.


Thank you. I thought I was going crazy.

I don't mind being called out one little bit, but not by dudes who must have flunked reading comprehension back in high school. And definitely not by somebody who doesn't know the difference between "there" and "they're".

As an angry, bitter old man I work with always says, "How do these people even bathe themselves?"
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Post#62 » by doozyj » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:21 am

blix wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Hooked on phonics - look it up. Or have someone look it up for you and explain it.

EDIT: This is the blind homerism that gives Laker fans, in general, a bad name.


Relax, guy read the Title of the Thread. This is what we are replying to, we can reply with our comments and opinions as much as you can (regardless of what your post count says) it gives you no right to be insulting, simply ignore our posts if you can't comment like a mature adult.

Try reading this and have a moderator explain this to you:
http://www.realgm.com/src_board_rules.php
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Post#63 » by Ez_08 » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:37 am

Sedale Threatt wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Thank you. I thought I was going crazy.

I don't mind being called out one little bit, but not by dudes who must have flunked reading comprehension back in high school. And definitely not by somebody who doesn't know the difference between "there" and "they're".
As an angry, bitter old man I work with always says, "How do these people even bathe themselves?"


If it makes you feel better you got called out by someone who goes to a top 10 university in America. And to get there, I definitely did not fail a reading class.........The title of the thread obviously conveys that Manu is being compared to Kobe so I accordingly replied to that. I don't have time to read every article that's written. So don't take it so personally..........jus thought I would let you know that your smartass is not get called out by some retarted people. Hope you feel better now.
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Post#64 » by numbas » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:53 am

blix wrote:I read it twice and I still fail to see where it says that Manu is as good of a player as Kobe.


it doenst say anything bout him sayin manu is as good as kobe in the article BUT it does say it in the like preview before u click the link to read the article go see urself espn.com then go to nba and its the main story

second again me personally i said yes manu is a great player all star level but it jsut annoyed me he compared his stats to kobe,this is manus BEST YEAR EVER BY FAR and he just has to happen to compare him to kobe wen he he blatenly a kobe hater then goes n does this, i mean y did it have to be kobe y not lebron,nash,pierce.... any other top flight guard

and also his little per stat is overated like one of the moderators said i forget who but according to it amare has the 3rd highest in NBA is he the 3rd best player in nba no is he even top 10??

and also now to defend manu idno y people keep sayin he plays against second teamers and comes off bench cuz he acutally averages more points wen he starts even tho its more min but w/e and even off the bench he always finishes the game which is more important
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Post#65 » by Kirk Moon » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:15 am

Phil_2.0 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



in your opinion ;)


of course :)
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Post#66 » by milesfides » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:41 am

I think it's kinda weird that a Laker fan would claim Tim Duncan's the MVP when this is the year Kobe's garnered the most MVP talk ever in his career, when many in the media tout him as the favorite candidate, when the Lakers sit at the top of the Western Conference, and when the MVP talk regarding Duncan is at the lowest it's been for about 5 years.

Not trying to call you out gothik, everybody's entitled to his own opinion, but I do think it's weird coming from a Laker fan.
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Post#67 » by milesfides » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:58 am

I hope I don't ruffle any feathers here, but I think it's clear that Hollinger was implying that Manu is as good as Kobe, in fact, I think Hollinger was implying that Manu was AT LEAST as good as Kobe. The reason is that

1) Hollinger generally believes in his own stat formula that much, based on all his articles, he presents his stats as revealing the REAL truth

2) in this specific article, Hollinger's diction and language make it absolutely clear.

"You think he can't hang? Guess again"

"Wait, it gets better."

"making the comparison a dead heat."

"trumps Kobe's 57.7"

"'If every time Ginobili comes off the bench you think to yourself "Kobe Bryant is checking in for the Spurs"

Seems pretty clear he isn't just saying Ginobili is underrated. He's saying Ginobili is as good as Kobe, and his primary evidence is his own PER calculations.
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Post#68 » by El Hardee » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:17 pm

milesfides wrote:I think it's kinda weird that a Laker fan would claim Tim Duncan's the MVP when this is the year Kobe's garnered the most MVP talk ever in his career, when many in the media tout him as the favorite candidate, when the Lakers sit at the top of the Western Conference, and when the MVP talk regarding Duncan is at the lowest it's been for about 5 years.

Not trying to call you out gothik, everybody's entitled to his own opinion, but I do think it's weird coming from a Laker fan.
Kobe is the MVP this year hands down, but IMHO TD is still the best player in the league. Dirk won a MVP and isnt even in the top 5 of best players.
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Post#69 » by Kilroy » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:17 pm

milesfides wrote:I hope I don't ruffle any feathers here, but I think it's clear that Hollinger was implying that Manu is as good as Kobe, in fact, I think Hollinger was implying that Manu was AT LEAST as good as Kobe. The reason is that

1) Hollinger generally believes in his own stat formula that much, based on all his articles, he presents his stats as revealing the REAL truth

2) in this specific article, Hollinger's diction and language make it absolutely clear.

"You think he can't hang? Guess again"

"Wait, it gets better."

"making the comparison a dead heat."

"trumps Kobe's 57.7"

"'If every time Ginobili comes off the bench you think to yourself "Kobe Bryant is checking in for the Spurs"

Seems pretty clear he isn't just saying Ginobili is underrated. He's saying Ginobili is as good as Kobe, and his primary evidence is his own PER calculations.


+1

It's the worst kind of 'grasping at straws to prove a point' kind of journalism.

He's entitled to his opinion about Manu and Kobe but I lost a lot of respect for his 'system' as a result of this article and how he's trying to use it to prove his point.

Statistical analysis is largely subjective. If you have an opinion going in, the statistics will 'prove' it.
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Post#70 » by Sedale Threatt » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:55 pm

Ez_08 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
If it makes you feel better you got called out by someone who goes to a top 10 university in America.


If an idiot like George W. Bush can earn degrees from Yale and Harvard, this doesn't really tell me much. But good for you.
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Post#71 » by Sedale Threatt » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:36 pm

milesfides wrote:I hope I don't ruffle any feathers here, but I think it's clear that Hollinger was implying that Manu is as good as Kobe, in fact, I think Hollinger was implying that Manu was AT LEAST as good as Kobe. The reason is that

1) Hollinger generally believes in his own stat formula that much, based on all his articles, he presents his stats as revealing the REAL truth

2) in this specific article, Hollinger's diction and language make it absolutely clear.

"You think he can't hang? Guess again"

"Wait, it gets better."

"making the comparison a dead heat."

"trumps Kobe's 57.7"

"'If every time Ginobili comes off the bench you think to yourself "Kobe Bryant is checking in for the Spurs"

Seems pretty clear he isn't just saying Ginobili is underrated. He's saying Ginobili is as good as Kobe, and his primary evidence is his own PER calculations.


OK, while I don't agree with your interpretation Miles, at least you state your case rationally and thoughtfully. As usual. Wishful thinking, but maybe this approach will start to rub off on people.

As somebody who took this piece with a rather large grain of salt -- I don't think anybody but a Spurs fan honestly thinks Manu is as good Kobe "Arguably the Best Player in the World" Bryant -- I digested it in the spirit in which I think it was intended. Which, again, was to illustrate just how good a season Ginobili is having, and how underrated he is, not to insult or denigrate Kobe.

I would even point out two big factors in Kobe's favor that serve to undermine any comparison:

1. Ginobili, even though he can carry the Spurs, doesn't have to because he's playing next to one of the best big men in league history. He can have an off night and the Spurs can still win. Maybe the Lakers can too now that the team has improved so drastically, but that's a luxury Kobe hasn't had over the past three or four years.

2. Ginobili's numbers received a HUGE boost from this historic hot streak he was on over the past two weeks. He's a notably streaky player, and he'll probably come back down to earth in a bit here. Considering how poorly he shot last night, maybe he already has.

But again, I don't think this article had nearly as much to do with Kobe as it did Ginobili. Being the gold standard for off guard play, Kobe is merely the measure against which Ginobili's performance must be judged.

You made a comment earlier along the lines of, "You don't need stats to know how good he is, just watch and you'll see for yourself." If only it were that easy. Even after reading the piece, many of the posters in this thread are still clinging to falsehoods, i.e. that because he's a sixth man he does most of his damage against backups.

Not only does no team play their backups for 30 minutes a game, his numbers actually improve when he starts. This is clearly stated, yet you've got posters still arguing that he's just beating up on scrubs, which leads us back to the whole reading comprehension thing.

I agree with one of the previous posters that you can twist statistics to say just about anything you want. But that doesn't mean the baby needs to be thrown out with the bathwater. I thought several of the nuggets he presented were pretty eye-opening, such as the similarity between the per-40 stats and the fact that Ginobili actually has a better true shooting percentage.

As long as you don't take material like this as iron-clad truth -- I didn't -- it can help you look at the game from new and interesting angles. At least, it does for me, and I like being exposed to it.
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Post#72 » by TonyMontana » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:08 pm

Kirk Moon wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



yep.
Timmy was and is, the best player in the World since Jordan.



Kirk , you know I got mad love for everyone on here including yourself , but as far as this post ..........

Im going to have to say ............. Helllllllllllll NO .


T.D is good , he is a great player , a team player .
By far he has one of the highest B.Ball I.Q's in the game .
He has his title's and he has his MVP's , but the best player since Jordan ....He's not .

I think the goals that Kobe has achieved and will achieve in the future will place him above M.J for years to come .

Honestly I dont see anyone that is as fun to watch , as athletic , as determend to win as Kobe in the game and the last player to do that was M.J .....

Just my take .
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Post#73 » by DarkoMilicic » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:17 pm

LAKESHOW wrote:hes coming off of the bench. he aint even a starter. so hes an explosive guy on the bench. they already have a title for that. 6th man of the year. you dont start comparing his stats with kobes and say hes a superstar.

the guy plays against backups. true or false? TRUE.

so the comparsion cant be made.

bring kobe bryant off the bench and he annihilates 2nd teamers.

he aint under the radar. HE IS ABOVE AND BEYOND THE RADAR. again, they have a high award, high honor for that, its called 6TH MAN OF THE YEAR! nothing more, nothing less.


While I have no doubt your basketball IQ is high, I disagree with this post. It doesn't who starts, only who finishes. And I'm sure Ginobili finished EVERY game. The thing is, his ego is miniscule and he does what's best for his team, something Kobe started doing this year. If he wanted to start, he would, but the Spurs would have trouble scoring with their 2nd unit. He does play against backups, but he also plays against starters and STARS. Just because a team has backups in the game when Manu enters doesn't mean he will be guarded by them. On any night, he might draw the defense of a Ronnie Brewer, Tayshaun Prince, Shawn Marion, and any variety of other top notch defenders.

Don't degrade a fellow star to put Kobe on a pedestal far above other players. Is he the best individual player in the game? Yes. The best team player? No. That's why he will be out in the WCF Semifinals this year, again.
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Post#74 » by Kirk Moon » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:48 pm

Miles, Tony, and whoever questions my take on Duncan ....

Im a Lakers fan, through thick and thin, no one can question that. This is my only favorite franchise, in all sports, something I keep a watchful eye on from a great distance, on a daily basis.

So let me explain how I see Duncan as a player:

4 rings as the main guy, probably in the toughest division in the league, with different support players, against different main rivals. Ultimate team guy, who is also one of the toughest in the league, especially among "stars".

Top player in his position ever, and top 10 player in the history of the game.

I will ask you back, how can he not to be the best player since Jordan?
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Post#75 » by Lost Angel » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:10 pm

Kirk Moon wrote:Miles, Tony, and whoever questions my take on Duncan ....

Im a Lakers fan, through thick and thin, no one can question that. This is my only favorite franchise, in all sports, something I keep a watchful eye on from a great distance, on a daily basis.

So let me explain how I see Duncan as a player:

4 rings as the main guy, probably in the toughest division in the league, with different support players, against different main rivals. Ultimate team guy, who is also one of the toughest in the league, especially among "stars".

Top player in his position ever, and top 10 player in the history of the game.

I will ask you back, how can he not to be the best player since Jordan?



because he's made out to be "boring."

i agree, but I still say Shaquille O'neal was the best player since Jordan. simply unstoppable at times. I'm amazed Shaq lost two NBA finals.

(then again Magic was on the losing side of four. he made the finals 9 freaking times!)
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Post#76 » by Magz50 » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:33 pm

Shaq was certainly the most dominant player since MJ but not the BEST player since MJ.
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Post#77 » by blix » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:03 pm

doozyj wrote:Relax, guy read the Title of the Thread. This is what we are replying to, we can reply with our comments and opinions as much as you can (regardless of what your post count says) it gives you no right to be insulting, simply ignore our posts if you can't comment like a mature adult.


A) I'm happy to treat people that act like adults, as adults
B) I wasn't even responding to you, I was responding to the overall leap in judgment by the guy I did respond to - if you don't like the way I said it. Sorry, life goes on and I hope you're not losing any sleep
C) If you want to get into a "rules" argument - there's a line in there about backseat modding

Try reading this and have a moderator explain this to you:
http://www.realgm.com/src_board_rules.php


D) This is my line - you now owe me royalties
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Post#78 » by doozyj » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:41 pm

blix wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



D) This is my line - you now owe me royalties


"If you, iamworthy, numbas, doozyj, or anyone else, would take the time to read (I know, it makes your head hurt), ST didn't compare the two in terms of their overall talent and impact on the game."

These are your words, you specifically mentioned my user name.

Yes, it is yesterday and no I didn't appreciate your insult, (that is not back seat modding as you are effecting me DIRECTLY in public). I would never say a remark like that to any fellow member here if I disagree with an opinion or post. That's it. We are both adults and now we can leave it alone and get back on topic. All good?
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Post#79 » by milesfides » Sun Mar 2, 2008 5:15 am

This topic has been split, since it has been OT for several pages.

The current discussion is contained in the thread titled, "Best player since Jordan."

Let's leave poor Manu alone.
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