ImageImageImageImage

Will Turk demand Shard type money when his contract is up?

Moderators: ChosenSavior, UCF, Knightro, UCFJayBird, Def Swami, Howard Mass

paperboymafia
Analyst
Posts: 3,227
And1: 645
Joined: Jul 25, 2005
Location: Switzerland
Contact:
   

 

Post#61 » by paperboymafia » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:43 am

i would like to think hedo would think about his situation here in orlando and how he has developed under SVG before demanding huge money...

maybe im an idealist or hope for too much but it would be nice if he pulled an "al jefferson" of sorts and not demand the max or anything to near it.
richboy
RealGM
Posts: 25,424
And1: 2,487
Joined: Sep 01, 2003

 

Post#62 » by richboy » Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:48 am

spinedoc wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I do too actually, to an extent. Stan does have a lot of faith in him and Hedo has been handling the ball a lot more this year.

But, my point about Hedo not having this career year without Lewis still stands. And just to be clear, its not specifically related to Lewis himself, but rather the level of a player that he is. Adding any big time enigmatic scorer to this team would have opened up Hedo's game. By raising the talent level of this team, it allows the focus to be trained elsewhere, and it makes it much easier for Hedo to move out on the floor. I agree that Hedo is a more versatile player than Shard, but Lewis is the more consistent player over time and will remain so. Its not meant to be a knock on Hedo when I say that, just trying to analyze why it is that his play has started to flourish.


Rashard on the floor helps spread the floor with shooting. Still for Hedo its impossible to compare his past years to this year. Its not like Hedo playing the exact role with better results. He has the most plays run for him than any perimeter player now. Fact is SVG plays Hedo more than any other time in the past. Has given him the majority of the responsibility for playmaking on the perimeter.
parso15
Junior
Posts: 394
And1: 4
Joined: Dec 30, 2007

 

Post#63 » by parso15 » Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:56 pm

paperboymafia wrote:i would like to think hedo would think about his situation here in orlando and how he has developed under SVG before demanding huge money...

maybe im an idealist or hope for too much but it would be nice if he pulled an "al jefferson" of sorts and not demand the max or anything to near it.


In an interview he did speak about the fact that if he plays his entire career in Orlando he might get his number retired by the Magic. Don't know about that (though if he plays at this level for 5-6 years he will rise in Glydes alltime lists :D ) but he seems commited to the organization given the fact that he flourishes with SVG he might be willing to sign if the gap is not too big... but there is still a lot of time until then lets wait & see!
spinedoc
RealGM
Posts: 11,434
And1: 4,264
Joined: Aug 16, 2002

 

Post#64 » by spinedoc » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:44 pm

richboy wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Rashard on the floor helps spread the floor with shooting. Still for Hedo its impossible to compare his past years to this year. Its not like Hedo playing the exact role with better results. He has the most plays run for him than any perimeter player now. Fact is SVG plays Hedo more than any other time in the past. Has given him the majority of the responsibility for playmaking on the perimeter.


Thats true, I agree with that, but do you think that he would have the same impact with last years team as he is having this year playing in a SVG system? Lets assume that he plays a point forward role that he has been recently with Grant on the team instead of Lewis, would he had been as effective?, Probably not imo. You say that its impossible to compare his past years, but thats all we have to go by. My argument is that without that prolific scorer on the floor with him, Hedo gets bottled up and can't create like he has been doing and he goes back to struggling as he has in the past.

My main problem with your argument is that you take the fact that Hedo has an expanded role this year, because of ineffective backcourt play, and then make over reaching assumptions. You don't take into account the fact that Lewis has a more limited role because we kept Hedo on this team. Lewis is playing out of position and still quietly matching Hedo's numbers. And just because Hedo is a better ball handler, it does not make his value higher than Rashard on the open market. Lewis has been and still is the better and more consistent player. Its like saying that because Nelson can handle the ball better and can bring the ball up the floor, that he is better than Hedo. Its just not the case. Lewis would always have earned more in the nba than Hedo, and not because we were foolish enough to pay him a hefty contract. Its because he's the better player. Look, I respect your opinion, but we simply disagree.
User avatar
SS_MagicMark
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 4,840
And1: 73
Joined: Jul 08, 2004
Location: Orlando
     

 

Post#65 » by SS_MagicMark » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:44 pm

One could've predicted how he'd get his big break here just by re-arranging the letters of his name, DUKE LOGO HURT.
Optimus_Steel
RealGM
Posts: 38,099
And1: 12,092
Joined: Sep 16, 2003
Location: Winter Garden, FL
   

 

Post#66 » by Optimus_Steel » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:49 pm

^^ Nice LOL.
aka: prorl
lovehoops01
General Manager
Posts: 7,878
And1: 1
Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Location: Orlando

 

Post#67 » by lovehoops01 » Sat Mar 1, 2008 5:20 am

Well, for whatever it's worth, Van Gundy said on the radio in the past week that even before he was the coach here, even when he was watching from afar, he thought that none of his coaches ever took advantage of all the skills that Hedo has.
karizma87
Rookie
Posts: 1,185
And1: 0
Joined: May 13, 2007

 

Post#68 » by karizma87 » Sat Mar 1, 2008 5:47 am

lovehoops01 wrote:Well, for whatever it's worth, Van Gundy said on the radio in the past week that even before he was the coach here, even when he was watching from afar, he thought that none of his coaches ever took advantage of all the skills that Hedo has.


hmm I dunno, I think rick adelman did, but he was just a rookie. popovich started him over manu, but he didn't, brian hill...lol. I think it's a combo of svg and him just blowing up, figuring out the game.
lovehoops01
General Manager
Posts: 7,878
And1: 1
Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Location: Orlando

 

Post#69 » by lovehoops01 » Sat Mar 1, 2008 6:31 am

karizma87 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



hmm I dunno, I think rick adelman did, but he was just a rookie. popovich started him over manu, but he didn't, brian hill...lol. I think it's a combo of svg and him just blowing up, figuring out the game.


Yeah, but apparently both Sacramento and San Antonio were willing to part ways with him if they had to pay him the MLE because they both let him go.

I kind of agree about Adelman -- and Hedo wasn't a rookie the whole time. He played there three seasons. I liked the way they used him in Sacramento a lot, and that's when I first noticed I liked his game (much more than Peja's, for what it's worth, because he could do more things). But after Hedo went to the Spurs, I kind of wondered what happened to his game. I guess he just didn't fit their system or didn't feel comfortable there. I was happy to see when the Magic signed him that he still was the versatile player that I remembered, though last season his inconsistency was a concern. Love the way he has played most of this season, though -- even though he does have a few nights when I wonder where the hell he is throwing the ball.
richboy
RealGM
Posts: 25,424
And1: 2,487
Joined: Sep 01, 2003

 

Post#70 » by richboy » Sat Mar 1, 2008 2:24 pm

spinedoc wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Thats true, I agree with that, but do you think that he would have the same impact with last years team as he is having this year playing in a SVG system? Lets assume that he plays a point forward role that he has been recently with Grant on the team instead of Lewis, would he had been as effective?, Probably not imo. You say that its impossible to compare his past years, but thats all we have to go by. My argument is that without that prolific scorer on the floor with him, Hedo gets bottled up and can't create like he has been doing and he goes back to struggling as he has in the past.

My main problem with your argument is that you take the fact that Hedo has an expanded role this year, because of ineffective backcourt play, and then make over reaching assumptions. You don't take into account the fact that Lewis has a more limited role because we kept Hedo on this team. Lewis is playing out of position and still quietly matching Hedo's numbers. And just because Hedo is a better ball handler, it does not make his value higher than Rashard on the open market. Lewis has been and still is the better and more consistent player. Its like saying that because Nelson can handle the ball better and can bring the ball up the floor, that he is better than Hedo. Its just not the case. Lewis would always have earned more in the nba than Hedo, and not because we were foolish enough to pay him a hefty contract. Its because he's the better player. Look, I respect your opinion, but we simply disagree.


I've watched Rashard his entire career and I said in this thread already that Hedo has absolutely no impact on Rashard. Matter of fact if Hedo was not on this team and Rashard had a PF next to him his numbers would be no different. Rashard is much more effected by playing second fiddle to Dwight in the post than he is to Hedo. Rashard has played with dynamic perimeter players. He has played many minutes in a front court very similar to the Hedo Rashard one now. In Seattle it was Vlad. Rashard has played and PF and had success. What he hasn't had to do since developing his post game is not be the number 1 post option. I told you back in May and June last year. Take away Rashard post game and he is not close to the same player. Rashard is only worth a big contract to a team that will use him as there top post option.

With the way that the two are being used Hedo is the better player. If you were not going to use Rarshard as a post option then I would take Hedo on the open market.

What happened in the past is the past. Just like Rashard is in a completely different system so is Hedo. Rashard the past few years was number 1 post option. Which led to him having the best years of his career. Hedo in the past watched as other players ran the offense on the perimeter. Now its his turn to be the focus. I've seen games where Hedo has had his numbered called in 7 or 8 straight possessions. That would never happen in the past. Flip that I have seen Rashard go quarters without a play called. Yet in Seattle he had more plays called for him than any player.

Hedo struggled in the past because he watched the game and when a shot came to him he was expected to make it. Now he is running the offense. How is Lewis matching Hedo's numbers. Hedo scoring more in less minutes. Averaging nearly 5 assist per game. Despite Rashard getting credit for playing PF is being outrebounded.
parso15
Junior
Posts: 394
And1: 4
Joined: Dec 30, 2007

 

Post#71 » by parso15 » Sat Mar 1, 2008 2:32 pm

spinedoc wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Thats true, I agree with that, but do you think that he would have the same impact with last years team as he is having this year playing in a SVG system? Lets assume that he plays a point forward role that he has been recently with Grant on the team instead of Lewis, would he had been as effective?, Probably not imo. You say that its impossible to compare his past years, but thats all we have to go by. My argument is that without that prolific scorer on the floor with him, Hedo gets bottled up and can't create like he has been doing and he goes back to struggling as he has in the past.

My main problem with your argument is that you take the fact that Hedo has an expanded role this year, because of ineffective backcourt play, and then make over reaching assumptions. You don't take into account the fact that Lewis has a more limited role because we kept Hedo on this team. Lewis is playing out of position and still quietly matching Hedo's numbers. And just because Hedo is a better ball handler, it does not make his value higher than Rashard on the open market. Lewis has been and still is the better and more consistent player. Its like saying that because Nelson can handle the ball better and can bring the ball up the floor, that he is better than Hedo. Its just not the case. Lewis would always have earned more in the nba than Hedo, and not because we were foolish enough to pay him a hefty contract. Its because he's the better player. Look, I respect your opinion, but we simply disagree.


1. Lewis is not a profilic scorer... decent one at best.
2. Flash over substance... playing the right kind of basketball is not rewarded in the NBA... Hedo is the better basketball player.
3. Although misguided I respect your opinion too :lol:
User avatar
Typhoon20
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,991
And1: 4
Joined: Nov 07, 2004

 

Post#72 » by Typhoon20 » Sat Mar 1, 2008 5:01 pm

Lewis is an incredible shooter, but he's very inconsistent. Kind of like Hedo last year. One day he shoots 8 for 10, next day he shoots 4 for 13. But he has one sweet shot. Wether he's open or has a hand in his face it doesn't matter for him. He's also a good defender and rebounder, when he wants to. Because for a good rebounder as him he should be getting 2-3 more rebounds a game. And when he really puts up the effort defensively he's very good.

Funny, last year we were nagging about Hedo being so inconsistent, now he's the team's most consistent guy with Dwight.

This brings me back to richboy's quality post. Shard's post game has truly suffered because of Dwight's presence. He still gets some possessions in the post but not as much, and when he does he's very affective.
Image
spinedoc
RealGM
Posts: 11,434
And1: 4,264
Joined: Aug 16, 2002

 

Post#73 » by spinedoc » Sat Mar 1, 2008 11:18 pm

richboy wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I've watched Rashard his entire career and I said in this thread already that Hedo has absolutely no impact on Rashard. Matter of fact if Hedo was not on this team and Rashard had a PF next to him his numbers would be no different. Rashard is much more effected by playing second fiddle to Dwight in the post than he is to Hedo. Rashard has played with dynamic perimeter players. He has played many minutes in a front court very similar to the Hedo Rashard one now. In Seattle it was Vlad. Rashard has played and PF and had success. What he hasn't had to do since developing his post game is not be the number 1 post option. I told you back in May and June last year. Take away Rashard post game and he is not close to the same player. Rashard is only worth a big contract to a team that will use him as there top post option.

With the way that the two are being used Hedo is the better player. If you were not going to use Rarshard as a post option then I would take Hedo on the open market.

What happened in the past is the past. Just like Rashard is in a completely different system so is Hedo. Rashard the past few years was number 1 post option. Which led to him having the best years of his career. Hedo in the past watched as other players ran the offense on the perimeter. Now its his turn to be the focus. I've seen games where Hedo has had his numbered called in 7 or 8 straight possessions. That would never happen in the past. Flip that I have seen Rashard go quarters without a play called. Yet in Seattle he had more plays called for him than any player.

Hedo struggled in the past because he watched the game and when a shot came to him he was expected to make it. Now he is running the offense. How is Lewis matching Hedo's numbers. Hedo scoring more in less minutes. Averaging nearly 5 assist per game. Despite Rashard getting credit for playing PF is being outrebounded.


No one is talking about taking away Rashard's post up ability. Thats part of what makes him the better player, but he needs to be posting up sf's instead of pf's to be most effective. Now, because of Battie being hurt and Hedo's play, he's been forced to play the position even when the matchup is bad. I'm not complaining, Hedo has filled the void nicely due to our mediocre backcourt play, but at the same time Lewis is sacrificing his game for the good of the team.

You make my argument for me actually talking about Dwights presence down low and Lewis' lack of rebounding at the position. I'm sure his numbers would go up if he was at his natural position. Sure he's versatile enough to play two positions, but he's still best suited for only one of them.

If your talking about Hedo being better this year, or better in SVG system, I would probably agree with that. But if your talking about who the better player is, and who I'd rather want on my team, I got to go with Rashard. I would imagine any other gm would as well. There is a whole other argument about what the difference should be dollars wise, and exactly how much more one is worth, but thats not really relevant here. The better player in my mind is Lewis, sorry.
richboy
RealGM
Posts: 25,424
And1: 2,487
Joined: Sep 01, 2003

 

Post#74 » by richboy » Sun Mar 2, 2008 1:31 am

spinedoc wrote:


No one is talking about taking away Rashard's post up ability. Thats part of what makes him the better player, but he needs to be posting up sf's instead of pf's to be most effective. Now, because of Battie being hurt and Hedo's play, he's been forced to play the position even when the matchup is bad. I'm not complaining, Hedo has filled the void nicely due to our mediocre backcourt play, but at the same time Lewis is sacrificing his game for the good of the team.


It doesn't make him a better player. Matter of fact he isn't a better player than Hedo. In the past he was used more than Hedo because of his post game. Most teams don't consistently post up there SF.

Who is guarding Rashard has little to do with what position he plays and little to do with his ineffective play this season. Rashard has been guarded by SFs and PFs. That is no different than last year in Seattle. He would post up either one. He would use strength against smaller players and face up the bigger PFs. Rashard in the past was even better playing PF. However back then he got his name called consistently for plays.

You make my argument for me actually talking about Dwights presence down low and Lewis' lack of rebounding at the position. I'm sure his numbers would go up if he was at his natural position. Sure he's versatile enough to play two positions, but he's still best suited for only one of them.


How many excuses you have. Let me count the ways. Rashard would grab more rebounds at SF than PF? Rashard is not a great rebounder. He isn't versatile. He is just big for a SF. There not one avenue of Rashard's game that says he can be a PF though. If Rashard is the PF on this team. Then his 5 rebounds per game in almost 40 minutes may be the worst rebounding numbers I've ever seen from a NB A PF.

[quote][If your talking about Hedo being better this year, or better in SVG system, I would probably agree with that. But if your talking about who the better player is, and who I'd rather want on my team, I got to go with Rashard. I would imagine any other gm would as well. There is a whole other argument about what the difference should be dollars wise, and exactly how much more one is worth, but thats not really relevant here. The better player in my mind is Lewis, sorry./quote]

Like I said if your going to use Rashard as your primary post player then I will take Rashard. You really going to take Rashard over Hedo if you don't plan on posting him as primary option. Seems like you cherish one aspect of the game and thats scoring. When Hedo does pretty much all things better than Rashard.
karizma87
Rookie
Posts: 1,185
And1: 0
Joined: May 13, 2007

 

Post#75 » by karizma87 » Sun Mar 2, 2008 2:19 am

^^^

yea that's like saying mike james is a better player than jason kidd because he can score better :S which isn't even true in rashard's case because hedo also scores more lol
spinedoc
RealGM
Posts: 11,434
And1: 4,264
Joined: Aug 16, 2002

 

Post#76 » by spinedoc » Sun Mar 2, 2008 2:49 pm

[quote="richboy"][/quote]

Richboy, I'm not trying to come up with excuses, just explaining to you my thoughts. Of course Rashard's rebounding numbers would go up if he's playing at his natural position. If there is another big body boxing out the opposing teams pf, it opens things up for Rashard around the basket. Logic would dictate that he would be a better rebounder against sf's rather than being over-matched at the four.

The versatility argument is hollow to me though. Yes, Hedo is more versatile than Lewis, but he's also more versatile than Dwight. Now which one is better in that case? I'd take Dwight over Hedo too in case your wondering. The focus right now is on Hedo rather than Lewis in SVG offense. Again, I'm not complaining. They are looking awesome together and playing off each other very well. But, lets keep in mind that Hedo has been here playing with Dwight for four years now. Lewis is in his first year with this team, that has to be factored in as well. Its been easier for Hedo to step up for this team because of that.

I agree that Hedo is playing better this year and is a better fit for Stans offense, but Rashard would still be picked first in any pickup game, or to build a franchise. Also, I'll say it again, without Rashard, Hedo doesn't have near the room to roam out on the floor. I'm just not going to agree that Hedo is a better player until I can see it for more than one partial season. Lets just be happy that we have both of them however, and let it go already. You make some good points, but its not going to change my mind until I can see it on a more consistent basis. :wink:
richboy
RealGM
Posts: 25,424
And1: 2,487
Joined: Sep 01, 2003

 

Post#77 » by richboy » Mon Mar 3, 2008 10:17 am

Rashard is playing closer to the basket at PF now. If he isn't grabbing rebounds then its because he is soft and doesn't want contact. Fact is though its easier to grab rebounds playing a interior player than defending perimeter players.

I see it as an excuse because you dont have to come up with reasons for not performing with great players. This team needs rebounding and Rashard can't grab a rebound because he playing PF? Rebounding is about quickness and wanting the ball. Obviously he just doesn't want to do what it takes to get it.

Ok this is getting ridiculous. Dwight is a dominate rebounder. Dominate defender. Close to dominate inside scorer. Forces double teams all over the floor. Completely changes the way the game is played. Don't compare Rashard to Dwight. Hedo does almost all things better than Rashard except post up. Unless your building a team around Rashard's ability to post up then its a wasted talent. In the end makes Rashard a much different player.

Rashard is a shooter. Hedo just needs a shooter to keep teams honest. I think you overstate that aspect to make the Rashard signing better. Perhaps Rashard is not having a great year but Hedo year has lots to do with Rashard. What because he can make a jump shot? Hedo has set up Rashard way more than Rashard has set up Hedo. I've seen Rashard wide open while teams try to trap Hedo pick-n-roll. He hits him all the time.

Rashard's PER right now is slightly above the league average. Meaning while Rashard is playing he is pretty much giving average NbA production for his position. Perhaps teams will take Rashard and hope that he can go back to his Seattle form. I stated why imo his production in Seattle is not likely to be duplicated. If another team is going to make Rashard the focus of there offense then perhaps it could. If not then he'll need someone to make excuses for him again.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful." John Wooden
spinedoc
RealGM
Posts: 11,434
And1: 4,264
Joined: Aug 16, 2002

 

Post#78 » by spinedoc » Mon Mar 3, 2008 6:55 pm

^^^^ its like playing handball with a brick wall. I think its fair to say that we aren't getting anywhere with this. I still like Rashard better, sorry. We will have to agree to disagree, until the next time at least. 8)

Return to Orlando Magic