Anybody Feel that Avery is on his way Out?

[TheCelticTruth]

haye to be a troll, so thats not my intention, but you guys must disagree with avery on the kidd thing right?

i know hindsight is 20-20, and ive been a fan of avery's since his spur days when you had to root for the C's until the end of the season and then somone else in the postseason, which for me was always the spurs because we feel like we missed out on TD, but as all the pundits say, and in my experience not liking but respectin JKidd, those are the situations that no one is better for!

kidd is not a great shooter, but as darren's point about stats says, he isnt terrible, and the man is just clutch. nash is probably the best all around point in the league right now, and deron williams and chris paul are closing the gap and improving, but still no one touches kidd's clutch ability.

wanted to share my thoughts, i think it was a great trade, but hes gotta be on the floor as much as possible.

[Captain_Obvious]

From catalyst's source:

"You've got to give us a chance to get it together," he said. "We haven't been together for five years or five months. We'll have another chance when we play them again. And if the game gets close, he'll be in the game, and we'll have two different scenarios to look at."

Next time they will play him.

[catalyst]

Avery said when the trade was complete that they brought Kidd in to help them close games. The first chance that he gets and he does not play the guy? I dont get it.

[Pootie41]

The thing is, even if Avery does play Kidd... is he going to prevent Kidd from playing the way Kidd should play? I have been saying from day one that Avery has made player half the player he was and should be.. is he already figuring out how to do the same with Kidd? or at least when it comes to Dirk? I swear. from what I have seen Avery is trying to discourage Kidd from passing to Dirk and making life easier for him.. and if you watch the mavs since Avery took over you see that NO ONE on the Mavs ever passes the ball to Dirk.. too much of a coincidence to me.

[DDansby123]

Avery made a mistake. End of discussion.

Dirk's made as many or more mistakes than Avery, and I don't see everyone hopping on the bandwagon to ship him out. Same for Josh Howard.

And yes, I know all the "Yeah but" arguments people are going to make: Miami, Golden State, our rough start this season, etc. All mistakes on Avery's part, no doubt. All of which could also be blamed on the aforementioned Dirk Nowitzki.

And no, Avery isn't the cause of all Dirk's problems.

[sosafan70]

If it wasn't for Avery, do you guys think Stack would be alright with sitting on the bench? Or Jet?


If it wasn't for Avery, do you think Brandon Bass would be the XFactor that he is for us?


It was one game, and like DDans said, one mistake. We have got to give the guy more credit as he's trying to assimilate all the new parts into one team with one goal: winning the championship

[JES12]

If it wasn't for Avery, do you guys think Stack would be still be here? Or Jet?


If it wasn't for Avery, do you think Brandon Bass would be the XFactor that he is for us?


It was many, numerous games, and like DDans said, many, numerous mistakes. We have got to give the guy more credit for ruining this team as he's the reason why we have to try to assimilate all the new parts into one team with one goal: winning the championship

Fixed!

[Pootie41]

"""Dirk's made as many or more mistakes than Avery, and I don't see everyone hopping on the bandwagon to ship him out. Same for Josh Howard."""

That's a bunch of bull. Avery is the one riding Dirk like a little jockey to coach of the year.. to the Finals.. to 67 wins. With screen after screen and Dirk passing out of the post to shooters that can't ever hit their shots. Then Dirk gets all the blame. Just like those last 2 plays where Drik missed shots in this last moments of the game.

Avery is saying he got the shots he wanted.. 2 contested shots from Dirk with Parker right in his face and the double teams waiting for him to try to make a move around Parker becasuse the Mavs have no shooters that require any respect and a center that isn't even good for offensive rebounding.

So the shot avery wanted was a contested shot from Dirk at the freethrow line.. You know why Avery wants this shot? Because avery knows that if Kidd is in the game then Dirk gets much better post position but because the Mavs don't have any shooters with or without Kidd on the floor Dirk is going to be forced to pass the ball out to guys who can't make the shot.

To say Dirk and Avery are just as much to blame for the Mavs problems is completely ridiculous. Dirk is carrying this franchise on his back completely.. all avery does is amke things harder for Dirk and then pretends this is somekind of brilliant motivational technique then when Dirk fails he can just blame Dirk for not being a leader.. it's a crock.. and anyone who is buying it is a sucker. Avery is looking out for number one... he always has been.

It's pretty funny.. Dirk is the one guy with the character to not demand a trade even when he is being conned by Avery and has to put up with Cuban's inpetitude and his own fans seem to think he's soft because he doesn't pull the same stuff other stars do.. it's a real tragedy.

The reality is that aveyr knows if Dirk succeeds then just like Nellie he is the guy who is goign to take the fall... so he is ensuring that if the Mavs do succeeed it won't be while Dirk is having success. And if you look through Avery's entire coaching career on the Mavs you will see that is the case. I have never seen a cpoach completely ignore their star player offensively the way Avery does.. it makes no sense what so ever. Unless that is the coach is intentionally throwing their star under the bus. And the great thing about Dirk, if you are Avery, is that it is the easiest thing in the world to throw Dirk under the bus.. because he has never gotten respect from anyone in this league. Not even most of his own fans.

Yet it's Dirk who is the only guy not named Duncan to have lead his team to the Finals in the West. not Kobe, not Nash, not Amare.. not KG.. and he's done it inspite of his coach, owner and teammates.

Magic Johnson recently said the Mavs brought Kidd in because Dirk doesn't make the players around him better. Nothing could be further from the truth. No player in the NBA not named LeBron james makes the players around them better than Dirk. and it's because Dirk is unguardable at his position. 7 footers can't guard dirk on the perimeter. This forces teams to put a small on Dirk. Which also forces them to put a big somwhere else on the floor. This is why all the bad players around Dirk look so good and how he makes the players around him better than anyone. This is what makes Avery's job so easy. And it's also why people don't realize how good Dirk makes everyone around him. It's also why the Warriors were able to take Dirk out of the game. Because they play small ball and Avery refuses to use Dirk's abilities as the ultimate small ball center that took away the mismatches Dirk creates. That was entirely Avery's fault. Yet Dirk took all the blame.

The reason Dirk struggles so much at times is because this team is built horribly and coached horribly. Read this to see how the team should be built and why..

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3033 ... zki-221007

[DDansby123]

^ Let's be clear, yes or no: you're arguing that Dirk isn't responsible at all for this team's shortcomings, and it's all Avery's fault? And Avery's intentionally throwing Dirk under the bus, knowing the team will be worse for it, so that Avery can keep his job? Is that about right?

[Pootie41]

Absolutely. In the simplest terms that is right.

Avery knows this team isn't going to win a championship. If Dirk is successful while the team loses.. then just like Nellie Avery is going to take the fall. If dirk isn't successful offensively and the Mavs lose then Dirk will take all the blame. and this is consistent with the way Avery has coached Dirk from day one. He has handcuffed Dirk offensively from day one. ignored him.

Take the Golden state series. Dirk is the best small ball center in the NBA. There are many ways you can take advanatge of Dirk's skills as small ball center when playing smallball. You use Dirk to spread the floor shooting threes and all your guards on the floor have a wide open lane to the basket. You also run back on the Warriors in transition. Avery refused to do any of this. He didn't let Dirk shoot from the perimeter until game six.. the elimination game. He also didn't even use Dirk as a small ball center all season except in the playoff series against the Warriors.. Then he blames Dirk for not being able to do what they haven't done all year.

No coach could be this stupid. Avery has to know what he is doing. Just like Avery suggesting that not having Kidd in at the end of the game helps Dirk as a shooter when Dirk's FG% has skyrocketed since Kidd came on the team and every time Kidd passes the ball to Dirk he hits the shot.. you think Avery doesn't know this? So how do you explain him not putting kidd in the game? It's consistent with what Avery has done since day one coaching Dirk.. he's sabotaged him offensively. Even Holger, Dirk's german coach, says the same thing in not so many words.

And it's not tough love. That's probably what he wants people to think.. but the people who buy into that are the same people that think Dirk can be Tim Duncan if only he had the right coach. They're idiots.

[Pootie41]

Just look at the facts. what has happened to Drik's FG% since Kidd came on the team? It's skyrocketed.

So how on earth can Avery claim having Kidd off the floor helps Dirk's shoot?

No one is this stupid. So if it isn't stupidity how do you explain it?

The asnwer is consistent with what I have been saying since the first day Avery took over as coach. From day one Avery has been sabotaging Dirk offensively. And since Avery took over Dirk has played poorly in big games. Look at Dirk's playoff numbers sicne Avery took over. They have gone from one of the best playoff performers ever to the bottom of the barrel. And since Avery took over Dirk has been seen as a choker.

Just look at the post position Dirk gets when Kidd is passing him the ball on the post.. it's like ngiht and day.. but when anyone else tries to get Dirk the ball Dirk is out at the freethrow line just like he was with parker on him at the end of the Spurs game.

So let's pretend Kidd was in there.. and Kidd passes the ball to Dirk wiht Parker on hi m in the post.. and Dirk has great post position.. what do you think is going to happen? Dirk is going to be doubled or tripled and forced to pass the ball to one of the Mavs terrible three point shooters who will invariably miss the shot.

Now.. you might say Dirk got doubled because Kidd doesn't demand respect from his defender on the perimter.. but that's BS because no one esle on the Mavs shoots any better than Kidd outside of Dirk.

The other alternative is that Kidd creates an open shot for Dirk and Dirk hits it.

Or Kidd gets the open shot Dirk cretaes and hits it.

The other thing avery could have done is to post Kidd up and pass the ball out to Dirk on the perimter for an open shot because Kidd demands a double with Parker guarding him on the perimter.

All of these alternatives would have ben better than what Avery chose to do. It's wasn't a mistake. no one could be this dumb. So why did he do it then? The answer is consistent with what Avery ahs done from day one as Dirk's coach.. it's consistent with what Dirk's German coach has said about Avery too..

[DDansby123]

Absolutely. In the simplest terms that is right.

Then we'll agree to disagree, because I don't see how anyone without an agenda could argue in favor of it.

[ppp000]

Avery won't admit he made a mistake, even to the point of pushing the blame to the "poisonous media"

I'm sorry, I don't respect coaches like that.

Reminds me of the Finals when Avery went **** on the reporters and lost his cool and made himself look like the amateur that he is. Also when he tried to play mind games with Nellie and changed our starting lineup and then made into a case of Dirk not being a leader instead of looking at his own coaching tactics as well.

If our iso offense and crunch time schemes worked, why the hell did we bring in Kidd? Avery's responses are nice attempts at diverting the question and blaming the media for saying he doesn't trust his pg, which is EXACTLY what he was sending by benching Kidd.

I don't know the relationship between Avery and Dirk so I won't speculate on that, but let's just say that Avery doesn't have the ability to bring out the best in his players, Dirk or not. Micromanaging may have something to do with that.

[DDansby123]

I don't know the relationship between Avery and Dirk so I won't speculate on that, but let's just say that Avery doesn't have the ability to bring out the best in his players, Dirk or not. Micromanaging may have something to do with that.

Avery should simply admit his mistakes and move on. That much is true. And I don't think he brings the best out of his players, either. That much, again, is true.

But that's also to be expected from a young, inexperienced coach. Maybe that's not the type of coach you want when you go "all-in" in search of a championship. (I'll listen to alternative coaching options, but there's a thin field right now, IMO.)


Again, I think if there's blame, it should go all around. Cuban for hiring an inexperienced coach, delaying needed trades, etc. Donnie for his relatively poor team construction, giving contracts to JET and Stack, etc. Avery for his mistakes (as mentioned here). And the players for theirs. There is no one-step solution to all our problems.

[Pootie41]

Actually there is a one-step-solution to the Mavs problems.

Trade Dirk.

Read this article:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3033 ... zki-221007

The entire Mavs team is completely conventional now. Dirk is the only piece that doesn't fit because he is so unconventional.

And this is why Avery hates Dirk's game so much and wants him gone. Because all Avery needs is an ultra conventional power forward to play in his ultra conventional system with his ultra conventional roster and they would have a much better chance of winnning than with Dirk. Otherwise you have to change everything around Dirk and you can't even do that without going through the draft.

I believe this is why Avery plays Dirk the way he does.. because when you play Dirk conventionally he looks terrible like he did against the Warriors. And that's the point I think Avery is trying to make.. "just give me an ordinary power forward and everyhting will be fine"..

But it's because of Avery's limitations that he can't adapt to Dirk.. and because Cuban built the team so poorly around Dirk.

[ppp000]

[quote="DDansby123"][/quote]

Yes I agree with that. Which is why I'm wary that this group will go very far if Avery is not willing to admit mistakes (even if he doesn't publicly, lets hope he realizes privately) and willing to concede some control to our PG. No need to call every play...

[DDansby123]

-= original quote snipped =-
Yes I agree with that. Which is why I'm wary that this group will go very far if Avery is not willing to admit mistakes (even if he doesn't publicly, lets hope he realizes privately) and willing to concede some control to our PG. No need to call every play...

Agreed.

[DDansby123]

Actually there is a one-step-solution to the Mavs problems.

Trade Dirk.

Actually, that's more an attempt at identifying the problem than providing a complete solution, but whatever.

The article goes a bit off-course, for me. It's basically a rehash of what I said several seasons ago (the exceptions being the unnecessary red-orange-yellow system and the requirement that the other dominant player beside Dirk be a C). The latter exception ignores a key point in today's NBA: the league now rewards quick perimeter players more than interior-oriented big men. To me, you simply need two mismatches every night, and you need them to be complementary. That doesn't necessitate an inside-outside structure, IMO. It requires, more simply, a balanced offense.

I have other problems with the article, too, particularly the fact that I don't exactly know where the author's going. It seems like he thinks you have to build a conventional team to win a championship, but then he seems to support the Suns and Raptors, neither of which are what I'd call successful. It's just a haphazardly-made argument, IMO.

[Pootie41]

You don't think the Suns are conventional? They have one of the most dominant inside players ever in Amare Stoudemire. And one of the best perimeter players ever in Steve Nash. Then they just got Shaq who is one of the most dominant inside palyers ever. I am sure Kerr is thinking of the inside outside game of Nash and Shaq as well.

And the idea is that you use the conventional formula with an unconventional big like Dirk who is a perimter player. That's what the author is saying about Bargnani/Bosh as well.

And trading Dirk is the solution, because the problem is simpy that Dirk doesn't fit the team. You could get any average traditional power forward and they would fit better than Dirk now.

And your point that the league rewards fast paced teams isn't conflicting with what the article says. Nowhere does the author say you need a lumbering center. He just says you need a true center with offensive ability a well-rounded center offensively and defensively. That's the complete opposite of all of the bigs around Dirk now and throughout his career.

and your assertion that the Mavs simply need 2 offensive threats is pretty silly when you consider all the offensive players the mavs have had in the past yet still weren't capable of winning. Yet the Mavs have never had a quality big player paired wqith Dirk. Not only hasn't Dirk had any qualty bigs he has had subpar bigs. Dirk is such a great player he manages to carry them anyway though. Imagine what would happen if you actually had a quality player nest to him in the frontcourt.

The other major point of the article youa re missing is the fact that scoring guards are totally wasted paired with Dirk.. they DON'T complement each other at all. Especially guards that can't shoot from the perimeter consistently to spread the floor when Dirk posts up.

That was the whole point of the color coding system.. to illustrate where the talent needs to be allocated.

[Roxflynorth]

Who's going to replace avery? Think about it and Avery is going nowhere