The Final Debate: Rick Adelman vs Jeff Van Gundy

[Roxflynorth]

I vote for Rick. However, I feel JVG should deserve some credit on our current success.

[Texas Longhorns]

I think RA's system is really paying of now.

[Iggyemu]

You know something. I don't believe we win 15 straight games with JVG coaching us. But still the playoffs if we get there will determine this debate.

[tha_rock220]

You know something. I don't believe we win 15 straight games with JVG coaching us. But still the playoffs if we get there will determine this debate.

That may be, but JVG wouldn't have allowed the Rockets to dig themselves into the hole they got into early in the season. JVG made a lot of defensive adjustments that would have won the Rockets several close games they lost when Adelman never bothered to make them.

I hate it when jvg fans make excuses for him saying that his roster wasn't that good. Thats bs. He had 4 years to improve the roster draftwise or tradewise and he got the wrong players. Thats his fault. He had bonzi, vspan, that he barely used. Bonzi's proven to be good, vspan i never thought was given the opportunity aside from being a spot up shooter in garbage time.

Every role player we got made more impact than what jvg did with his roster. When JVG was here, it was all about yao and tmac. Now its about the team.

There is no way Landry or Brooks would've had a chance in JVG's roster. He would never give them the chance like adelman does.
JVG's mindset is all about vets. Remember Jon barry, Bob Sura, Juwan Howard, dikembe. He always talks about the mistakes rookies make, and that costs games. We played 3 freaking rookies and gave them minutes jvg never did and they played well.

I hate it when clueless Rockets fans leave the Rockets board and say stuff that makes all Rockets fans look like Kobe fans.

1. JVG played Luther Head as a rookie
2. Everyone except Yao and McGrady has been more effective. duh
3. Coaches don't bother with salaries, trade exceptions, agents or anything else of that nature. NBA teams have things guys called "General Managers". Those are the guys responsible for player moves. If you need it, I'll find you a link on the subject.
4. VSpan had opportunities. He was content to simply turn the ball over twice a minute and complain about not playing. And I think it was well known that Bonzi never bothered to get in shape last season.

[moofs]

He had bonzi, vspan, that he barely used. Bonzi's proven to be good, vspan i never thought was given the opportunity aside from being a spot up shooter in garbage time.

We have MANY more options this year with still-great defense. More options = more possessions to try and score, we don't have to try and limit the score and run efficient plays like we did the last two years because we don't have enough talent. Bonzi played pretty good for us (at times), but he was wildly inefficient (.425 woo!) and inconsistent. Add to that how out of shape he was last year, lessening his skills more, and that we played a possession-based game the last two years out of necessity. Bonzi would not have (and didn't) fit last year, and it was through no fault of JVG's. Gungun ran his offense with what he had to work with, which was VERY little. I remember him asking for some players, but I can assure you that he asked for those players not because he wanted to run a boring offense that couldn't do anything, but because we were EXTREMELY limited on what we could do with our roster (and still are, albeit to a lesser degree).

And you think the Coach has nothing to do with the decision? You're in lala land my friend. Coach plays a big part on telling what the team needs and wants. He knows the best of his team. Adelman made a decision no one else would've made after a horrible year by resigning bonzi. He played a large part in drafting brooks, he played a large part in getting bobby jackson.

Notice how we upgraded this year. Notice it. We did not upgrade through free agency, we upgraded through the draft (which was, and has been, our only remotely viable option).

Trades:
Steve Francis (SUCKS)
Mike James (SUCKS)
Bobby Jackson (TBD, but looks decent-good)
Gerald Green (TBD)
Bobby Jones (NA)

Draft Picks:
Scola (AWESOME IN A CAN)
Landry (AWESOME IN A REALLY, REALLY BIG CAN)
Brooks (Decent)

Improved:
Alston
Head
Novak (somewhat...)

We haven't had any good trade options for the last 3 years. Tell me how that's the coach's fault? The one that caused the problem was CD waaaaay back when he signed Kelvin Cato to a 7mil contract for 6 years based on a good preseason (I was in favor of it at the time, but I was also stupid and thought Steve Francis was AWESOME!!!! at the time and didn't understand or know about cap management then either).

Our biggest improvement has been at the GM position, much as I like CD as a coach, I agree with Hollinger:

Hopefully the team doesn't hire an old player as a GM. Sure it seems nice, but no matter how much the player may know about basketball, they almost without fail manage to screw up the cap.

CD was a great assistant coach, but a fairly lousy GM. Let's put it this way, it was frequently acknowledged that he was LOVED or VERY WELL RESPECTED by the GMs around the league. Do you ever hear GMs that are considered good spoken of in that light? It's been mentioned that a lot of GMs were terrified to run a trade with Jerry West (an ex-player who worked pretty well as a GM).

Also as United already pointed out, Adelman did not resign Bonzi. Bonzi had a player option second year and exercised it when Adelman signed as coach (he very obviously hurt his FA value with his antics last year)

The coach also has to sign and approve the trade to make it happen.

That depends on what the owner requires. A good GM will work with his coach to determine how good a move is from a basketball perspective, but they're by no means required to do so unless the owner or their contract directs it.

JVG's mindset is all about vets. Remember Jon barry, Bob Sura, Juwan Howard, dikembe. He always talks about the mistakes rookies make, and that costs games. We played 3 freaking rookies and gave them minutes jvg never did and they played well.

ESPN's mindset is that they can easily tout JVG as being all about washed up vets because it's one of the more interesting/easily written/easily parrotable ways to set a storyline to what JVG was doing.

JVG played Chuck Hayes, who sucks compared to who we have now (but is still a serviceable backup PF), and Luther Head (who REALLY sucked prior to this year). I don't recommend repeating SAS, ever. If he says it, start by saying the opposite, then double check what you're saying to make sure it's right just in case he got lucky on something.

But more importantly, how in the WORLD are you still stuck on VSpan?

You know something. I don't believe we win 15 straight games with JVG coaching us. But still the playoffs if we get there will determine this debate.

I kinda think that playoff success determines less than people say.

[Roxflynorth]

I am one of the guy who jumped out and said thank god finally JVG was gone. Guess what, if we had Scola or Landry last season we should have advanced. JVG isn't as bad as it seems. I feel sorry JVG isn't hired as a coach now because this guy belongs to there. Yeah I agree with moofs our GM's magic has been working well exceptionally. Our current rosters are a lot better than last year. (Chuck at PF? and heavy minutes? OH!). Rick is not reluctant to use Rookies make my vote goes to him. Be honest, we should have pound of JVG and what he brought on the table.

[moofs]

I would also like to note that after finding out all the reasons for which JVG was gotten rid of, I don't disagree with his dismissal from the franchise's perspective. The view of it I still disagree with is the one that a lot of fans have put forward. Both coaches "are good fits" for our players - they are both very good coaches who can get the job done. I think Adelman adds some to what we have, but probably not as much as others would like to give him credit for.

p.s. add a third poll option - "It really doesn't matter anymore."

[BaYBaller]

You can't say just because we had a worse squad years prior as the reason JVG's offense was stagnant. There's a reason JVG has the reputation that he does, his teams have never ran an efficient offense. JVG teams relied almost entirely on isolations and spot-up shooters spreading the floor, similar to what SVG is doing in Orlando. SVG has basically turned Rashard Lewis into a max-contract spot-up shooter.

JVG was also very inflexible. He has his principles (mostly defensive) and stuck to that gameplan no matter the opponent. Adelman changes things based on opponents. He might play zone for a stretch one game (JVG teams never plays zone), and not play it in the next. Adelman does more experimentation with line-ups as well. He might go big or small. Adelman obviously has put an emphasis on the offensive glass, while JVG advocates getting back on transition D.

What it all boils down to is that JVG is a perfect coach for young, inexperienced teams and helping them grow. JVG brings discipline and defensive intensity, things that young players often lack coming into the NBA. JVG is very much like Scott Skiles in what he brings to a team.

But Adelman is a players coach, e.g. a coach for veteran players. He develops teams offensively, which is what this team sorely needed. The team kept the defensive intensity from JVG, but now they are slowly learning how to play offense as a team. And remember Adelman develops his offense over the span of 2-3 seasons so there is still much improvement to be had. So far the main things Adelman has added is just moving the ball, off ball movement and getting out on the break.

When all is said and done I don't even think with the outcome of this season's playoffs that we'll be able to judge Adelman. The team still hasn't completely grasped Adelman's offense and the team is without Yao. Next year, barring major injuries, will show Adelman's true worth. But all signs point to Adelman being the right decision for the future.

P.S. I don't blame JVG for Bonzi, Bonzi was (or is) out of control. But I do partially blame JVG for losing the UTA series. Boozer averaged like 40 points a game after game 1 and JVG did not adjust his defense one bit. The playoffs are all about adjustments (i.e. Boozer adjusted how he attacked Yao after a horrid game 1) and JVG did not adjust at all that entire series. The major gripe I had was why JVG did not flash some zone into his defense, which has proven to be incredibly effective vs UTA who rely heavily on PnR's. Even Riley (JVG's mentor) uses zone every now and then.

[TMU]

If people thought JVG had enough talent to move past the first round, why did they complain about Rafer's poor shooting, Hayes's foul troubles, Head's inability to play PG, **** V-Span's constant bitching, etc.

Whether you like JVG or not, this team didn't have near the talent as it does today. He didn't have Scola, Landry, Bobby Jackson, or a more consistent Luther Head. Sure RA might be better than JVG as a coach because like Iggy said, I am not sure if we would have our 15 game winning streak with him as a coach, but let's not forget that he's still a damn good coach and a defensive guru.

Out of the 3 seasons of the McGrady-Yao tandem, JVG fully integrated those two only for 2 seasons because both players got hurt in 05-06. It was just unfortunate he didn't have many tools to work with when McGrady or Yao got injured.

If you want to credit our potential success we're having this season to someone, give Morey a lot of credit. He signed Adelman, acquired Scola, B.Jax (who seems to be working right now), made adjustments by trading away Mike James, drafted Landry and Brooks, etc. Things that finally brought us significant improvement and progress.

A lot of you make premature judgments about players, coaches, and sometimes even about our GM. But then when things work out, you guys act like nothing has happened.

[grond]

-= original quote snipped =-
Gungun ran his offense with what he had to work with, which was VERY little.

Having watched a lot of Knicks basketball in the late 90's, and early 00's, I don't think personel has as much to do with Gundy's offense schemes as all that. Maybe he'll prove me wrong once he lands the suns coaching job, but he cut his coaching teeth under Riley, and i think that slow-paced, defensive prioritised, isloation in post style is his preference.

BayBaller's post is pretty accurate imo. Adelman is more flexible than Gundy - which is preferable in the nba where games can be determined through in-game adjustments (that Utah series is a very good example). The good thing about Adelman is that he encourages the players to think and adjust for themselves while on the court, whereas Gundy likes to micromanage. It's always been my belief that it's the players that can actually think for themselves out there on the court that stand the best chance of succeeding once the pressure's really on.

[moofs]

Agree with all 3 prior posters, save on this one point:

You can't say just because we had a worse squad years prior as the reason JVG's offense was stagnant.

No, I can't, and I didn't see TOO much of him in New York, nor do I remember at this point (or care to look up and analyze) what kind of personnel he had there either. I do feel safe saying that with better players, his offense would not have been as stagnant as it was the last two years. I've pointed out before and I'll do it again, I loved watching our team play in the last half of 2004-2005. I can't claim to know whether that was a fluke with JVG or not, but I know that one way or another, he's capable of running some level of offense.

[TMU]

We still managed to win 50+ games despite the fact that our team roster in 04-05 was unstable and had 23 different players playing for the team. Not to mention that was McGrady's first year as a Rocket.

That just proves the lack of talent we had and the lack of preparation we had for the playoffs. Not everything was JVG's fault.

[BaYBaller]

Agree with all 3 prior posters, save on this one point:

-= original quote snipped =-



No, I can't, and I didn't see TOO much of him in New York, nor do I remember at this point (or care to look up and analyze) what kind of personnel he had there either. I do feel safe saying that with better players, his offense would not have been as stagnant as it was the last two years. I've pointed out before and I'll do it again, I loved watching our team play in the last half of 2004-2005. I can't claim to know whether that was a fluke with JVG or not, but I know that one way or another, he's capable of running some level of offense.

Obviously if JVG had better players his offense would look better. That holds true of any coach. However I do not think that Mike Brown is a good coach, he just happens to have somebody by the name of LeBron James.

And I too enjoyed the 04-05 team, but it was still the exact same offense. And when the offense looked good it meant everybody was hitting their 3's. However to be a solid offensive team you have to rely more than just 3's. Plus the T-Mac of 2 years ago is not the T-Mac of today (he's worse).

I'm not saying JVG didn't run plays (he did), nor am I saying the offense scheme is not solid (it is). But there simply was no variance and thus too predictable and teams (i.e. UTA) shut it down by overplaying the focal points of T-Mac and Yao.

For the record I don't blame JVG's offense for the first-round exits. JVG is just not an offensive coach, management knew what to expect out of him when they hired him. Complicated offensive systems take seasons to incorporate, not something you could pull off in the middle of a series. I just did not expect JVG to be so inflexible on defense, which is his forte. JVG was taught under Riley, and both do not like zone nor do they like to double-team. However the differences is Riley knows that sometimes you have to double-team and sometimes zone can be advantageous and is willing to adapt to his opponent. JVG never did.

[aznkillabeezZz]

\I don't believe for a minute that JVG would've given our rookies the chance. And besides, our offense is a trillion times better than JVG's halfcourt stagnant offense which heavily depended on yao and tmac.

Not forgetting Stromile and Derek anderson bust additions. And its obviously CD or JVG's fault. Both have to taken part in the players they bring in.

[BaYBaller]

I found this on the general forum:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008 ... PHIC.html#

It's a JVG audio of how to defend different players/plays, and even has one on Yao. It's pretty interesting.

[aznkillabeezZz]

^ROFL.. Now he's snitching to the press since he got fired..jk Anyone can draw up plays for defense and offense, but applying it in a game is tougher. And i don't believe we ever slowed down the Suns during the JVG day.

[aznkillabeezZz]

The same JVG who valued offenseless players like Ryan Bowen, Chuck hayes and Tsakaladis LOL LOL LOL Bobby Jones could whoop tsakalidis ass.

[buckybadgerfan]

-= original quote snipped =-
Notice how we upgraded this year. Notice it. We did not upgrade through free agency, we upgraded through the draft (which was, and has been, our only remotely viable option).

Trades:
Steve Francis (SUCKS)
Mike James (SUCKS)
Bobby Jackson (TBD, but looks decent-good)
Gerald Green (TBD)
Bobby Jones (NA)

Draft Picks:
Scola (AWESOME IN A CAN)
Landry (AWESOME IN A REALLY, REALLY BIG CAN)
Brooks (Decent)

Improved:
Alston
Head
Novak (somewhat...)

We haven't had any good trade options for the last 3 years. Tell me how that's the coach's fault? The one that caused the problem was CD waaaaay back when he signed Kelvin Cato to a 7mil contract for 6 years based on a good preseason (I was in favor of it at the time, but I was also stupid and thought Steve Francis was AWESOME!!!! at the time and didn't understand or know about cap management then either).
.

If I'm not mistaken. Didn't Rox get Scola via trade with Spurs? Possibly the steal trade of the past summer.

You guys can argue JVG and Adelman all you wish. Fact is that Adelman's offense is FUN to watch even when Yao and Mac aren't playing much. Now with the improved Defense it's even more interesting to see how far this team will go. JVG's offense was predictable and stagnant no matter who was playing for the Rockets.

JVG had both stars injured at various stretches too but fact is he relied too much on the star players to create. This year Adelman has the star players trying to fit into a new system and yet he is understanding enough to allow them time to learn/adjust. The Rockets weren't employing Adelman's system earlier in the season and occasionally reverted to much of what we saw last year.

This team will still go far in lieu of Yao IF they continue to play Adelman ball. This year there are more confident shooters. Percentages haven't gone up much but the confidence is there knowing that players will get their share. Under JVG shot attempts were few and players (not named TMac) were too hesitant to shoot for fear of JVG's scowl and staredown.

[moofs]

If I'm not mistaken. Didn't Rox get Scola via trade with Spurs? Possibly the steal trade of the past summer.

Ahhh, slipped my mind, yup. I'd say it's still a draft pick though. There have been plenty of guys who played awesome euro/olympics ball whose games haven't translated very well to the NBA. You probably have a higher chance with them than a true rookie, but it's still a gamble. Still, you're right, trade + draft

[moofs]

I found this on the general forum:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008 ... PHIC.html#

It's a JVG audio of how to defend different players/plays, and even has one on Yao. It's pretty interesting.

Wow. That, is a very good link.

I'd like to know some more things like that, just blows my mind.